Zen Anybody

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

One of my favorite and, at one time, most puzzling Zen meditations was Yunmen's "dried

It is a seeming paradox how one can live free of the conceptual without using the conceptual to accomplish such a thing but the paradox occurs due to a couple of things. One is humans don't even understand or have a grasp of what we are, what consciousness is or is composed of. Then secondly, the paradox of course occurs within the conceptual. Thought examining or looking at thought is about as divorced from reality as one can get.

The simple "answer" is understanding, while commonly "verbalized" both internally and externally, is present prior to language. Understanding is not dependent on language or words or conceptual or symbolic presentations or abstractions of reality.

So we "know" without knowing how we know. It is just shown in experience, obvious and present. I've pondered that some and come to the conclusion that certain aspects of consciousness and mind produced in the brain mirror each other, thus two sources of "understanding" or "knowledge that while merged while in a incarnation, are of a completely different source and substance. One resides in consciousness itself and the other of course comes from and is housed in the brain.

So that quote, what is "Buddha" or what is "xyz" for that matter is asking about a mental image, conceptual reality, which of course is taught in Zen Buddhism to be a "phantom" non-real reality. While one's attention can be wholly caught up in thought and thinking, one "enlightened" is aware such content in the now is not only optional as far as being focused on or made phenomenal, but also is completely suspect in the "truths" it may be conveying. So yes what is xyz..... the answer fits.

[Joe Mc]

In the Soto Zen School categorised by the writings of it's founder Dogen. The act of sitting Zazen is the beginning and end of it all ... whatever terms you would like to use. There no such thing as the elimination of thought. When you sit you are Buddha..what have thoughts got to do with it ? Don't waste your life trying to eliminate thoughts ...but just sit and if are still trying to eliminate thoughts while you are sitting then that's it ..you are just doing that ! This comment is for you Phaelyn because I think you said in an earlier comment that the purpose was to 'eliminate thought' ? How could you eliminate ice ? Anyways maybe i misread what you said. Thoughts can vanish yes ..there is no doubt about it ...you can sit Samadhi for decades perhaps but you will still have to open your eyes some day ? Anyway Best wishes.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

that the purpose was to 'eliminate thought' ?

Such a complicated subject.

Thought has no consciousness and is not created by consciousness so the question is more about what is our ( * we are consciousness) relationship with thought. But then there is not one answer. The relationship between us and thought can be a lot of different things. A simple example is the difference between a flexible open minded person and a rigid closed minded strongly opinionated person. These two types have different relationships with their thoughts.

Some question their own thinking all the time and some never do. As far as Zen, the metaphor I see a lot is the one of passing clouds. Thoughts are coming and going all the time. Some we make a big deal out of and others we ignore. Some trigger emotions in us, good or bad, and others trigger nothing much at all. The basic Zen idea is to be unattached to them, realize they are temporary, but then also in Zen and Buddhism are the teachings about form, mental filters, and about how one enlightened or liberated is free of identification with such content in the now.

Now not being identified with something is similar to not focusing on or paying attention to something. So this idea of "can one get rid of thought?" can be about something other than how we normally think of that. It at first reads as, I get rid of it, which like you say, is impossible. How do we get rid of something we have no control over? We are not the creators of thought. The brain is. As modern scientists have discovered, the brain makes thoughts before we are conscious of them.

So while "getting rid of them" makes zero sense, just as we can't get rid of clouds drifting across the sky, what we can "do" is decide what kind of importance we put on thoughts, how often we let our attention be absorbed by thoughts, how much we let our focus or gaze be in them.

That's the odd thing about all of this. Since we are not the actual creators of thought, nor are we thought, it is content provided to us, then while we can't get rid of it, we can direct our awareness away from it, so while we didn't get rid of it, it still exists in a sense, but we no longer are aware of it, it no longer produces an effect in us or a response.

It's like a room full of a lot of different things. We are aware of what we are focusing on. Like say a spider is on the ceiling and we are not aware it is there. Is it there? Well yes and no. It is there? yes, Is it there to us? No, not if we are unaware it is there.

But then it is not an unawareness it is there, it is an awareness of the potential of now as it is when the attention is not on such content.

Unawareness usually means identification with thought. It is what takes place unconsciously, when not paying attention through more awareness. So really it is an awareness of my current relationship with it, experiential reality, the actual, this now as it is before I color it by focusing on thought thereby making something without substance or true form in itself phenomenal. But like I said, to me, the human body is designed for this delusion to take place. It is programmed to create this. To wake up is to chose a different way to be, though more awareness not less, awareness of the now as it exists before we apply the conceptual to it by identifying with thought, making thought phenomenal. But like I said, this happens on it's own. The passivity of consciousness lets it occur. Higher awareness and "self" understanding, awake alert being ends it. Chooses a different perception and experience in the present.

I don't think anyone is unaware thoughts are there, what they are unaware of is that me and them are different, that identifying with thoughts is optional. Reacting to thoughts is optional. Making now about thoughts is optional. Doesn't matter if they are here or not, what matters is what we create with them or don't create....or what they create in us or don't create.

I don't have time to edit this or re-read it so it may make no sense as written.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Such a complicated subject.

Thought has no consciousness and is not created by consciousness so the question is more about what is our ( * we are consciousness) relationship with thought. But then there is not one answer. The relationship between us and thought can be a lot of different things. A simple example is the difference between a flexible open minded person and a rigid closed minded strongly opinionated person. These two types have different relationships with their thoughts.

Some question their own thinking all the time and some never do. As far as Zen, the metaphor I see a lot is the one of passing clouds. Thoughts are coming and going all the time. Some we make a big deal out of and others we ignore. Some trigger emotions in us, good or bad, and others trigger nothing much at all. The basic Zen idea is to be unattached to them, realize they are temporary, but then also in Zen and Buddhism are the teachings about form, mental filters, and about how one enlightened or liberated is free of identification with such content in the now.

Now not being identified with something is similar to not focusing on or paying attention to something. So this idea of "can one get rid of thought?" can be about something other than how we normally think of that. It at first reads as, I get rid of it, which like you say, is impossible. How do we get rid of something we have no control over? We are not the creators of thought. The brain is. As modern scientists have discovered, the brain makes thoughts before we are conscious of them.

So while "getting rid of them" makes zero sense, just as we can't get rid of clouds drifting across the sky, what we can "do" is decide what kind of importance we put on thoughts, how often we let our attention be absorbed by thoughts, how much we let our focus or gaze be in them.

That's the odd thing about all of this. Since we are not the actual creators of thought, nor are we thought, it is content provided to us, then while we can't get rid of it, we can direct our awareness away from it, so while we didn't get rid of it, it still exists in a sense, but we no longer are aware of it, it no longer produces an effect in us or a response.

It's like a room full of a lot of different things. We are aware of what we are focusing on. Like say a spider is on the ceiling and we are not aware it is there. Is it there? Well yes and no. It is there? yes, Is it there to us? No, not if we are unaware it is there.

But then it is not an unawareness it is there, it is an awareness of the potential of now as it is when the attention is not on such content.

Unawareness usually means identification with thought. It is what takes place unconsciously, when not paying attention through more awareness. So really it is an awareness of my current relationship with it, experiential reality, the actual, this now as it is before I color it by focusing on thought thereby making something without substance or true form in itself phenomenal. But like I said, to me, the human body is designed for this delusion to take place. It is programmed to create this. To wake up is to chose a different way to be, though more awareness not less, awareness of the now as it exists before we apply the conceptual to it by identifying with thought, making thought phenomenal. But like I said, this happens on it's own. The passivity of consciousness lets it occur. Higher awareness and "self" understanding, awake alert being ends it. Chooses a different perception and experience in the present.

I don't think anyone is unaware thoughts are there, what they are unaware of is that me and them are different, that identifying with thoughts is optional. Reacting to thoughts is optional. Making now about thoughts is optional. Doesn't matter if they are here or not, what matters is what we create with them or don't create....or what they create in us or don't create.

I don't have time to edit this or re-read it so it may make no sense as written.

No it makes quite alot of sense. Just a couple of things came up while reading it ..so forgive if there is no cogency between my ideas, sometimes i try for coherency and i lose the idea in the process.

First thing, when you say awareness moving away, I would also say awareness moving towards. Although awareness of thoughts is perhaps a simultaneous event in the sense that you at once move away as you say but by moving towards in a sense. That could be true.

Somewhere you reminded me of the 16th century philosopher, the Bishop Berkley who is associated with the statement, To be is to be perceived, esse is percipi. So simply, the chair in the other room does not exist at this moment because it is not being perceived because you are in the other room, this kind of thing. But I think my association to his statement is tangential in relation to the spider you cited in your example.

Lack of awareness of thought etc. is ok. That's why Zen Buddhists are renowned for their sitting practice...you don't have to be aware as such to seat yourself on a cushion, well i suppose you have to have some awareness to seat yourself on the cushion etc. Anyway we can only be were we are conscious, unconscious, awakened etc. its good to be there ..that's why i find Zen so good in that regard ..there are no prerequisites. Not sure i'm making any sense at all but you know i was thinking ...there is alot of thought about thought itself and i think alot of it is sketchy and to prove that certain thoughts drive certain emotions and all of that ..i wouldn't really have the time....but i have a feeling people love to theorise and speculate ... and sound wholly conclusive about their theories that thoughts do this and thoughts do that ...i remain open minded about what thoughts can do ..with the greatest of respect. Hope you're well, best wishes Joe.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Thank you .... yes it seems like such an 'open secret'. It seems to contain the sublimest contradictions and paradoxes that have ever been written and yet there is no contradiction or paradoxes at all. What a reply from that master lol perfect. thank you kind regards.

That response silenced me immediately, as you can imagine.

That is the nature of Zen. It makes one stop and reflect.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

In the Soto Zen School categorised by the writings of it's founder Dogen. The act of sitting Zazen is the beginning and end of it all ... whatever terms you would like to use. There no such thing as the elimination of thought. When you sit you are Buddha..what have thoughts got to do with it ? Don't waste your life trying to eliminate thoughts ...but just sit and if are still trying to eliminate thoughts while you are sitting then that's it ..you are just doing that ! This comment is for you Phaelyn because I think you said in an earlier comment that the purpose was to 'eliminate thought' ? How could you eliminate ice ? Anyways maybe i misread what you said. Thoughts can vanish yes ..there is no doubt about it ...you can sit Samadhi for decades perhaps but you will still have to open your eyes some day ? Anyway Best wishes.

Thoughts, however, do eventually dissolve ... and that thought-free state is so awesome that one does not even want to disturb it with mundane thoughts ... except when it is necessary to activate the instrument of the mind just as one activates one's arm or one's leg or one's mouth.

The Korean Zen Master, Seung Sahn, has said: "When you're thinking, your mind and my mind are different. When you cut off all thinking, your mind, my mind, and everybody's minds are the same: God's mind, Buddha's mind, Christ's mind".

He also said: "Open your mouth and you're wrong". (Words are obviously inadequate. That is why some advanced teachers, whom I have met, teach in absolute silence.)

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Thoughts, however, do eventually dissolve ...

Last year I noticed I had a habit of thinking about things in the past, dealing with things done to me or whatever, troubling type stuff, regrets and what not. Well was I "thinking" these thoughts willfully? Consciously choosing these thoughts and this activity? Probably not. But the thoughts would come a lot and so this activity would as well. Like going for a walk, next thing I know, I am going over stuff from the past again. Getting angry or wishing this or that was done differently or I did things differently. Really all of this was happening to me, not by me. Basically a state of submissiveness to this brain and it's habitual patterns and habits is why this was happening. Plus, a lack of awareness in myself. So those thoughts would come and I would feed them with my attention and energy and off into a bad experience I would go. A peaceful walk would become feeling negative emotions and energy from the past.

This rarely happens anymore. How or why? That's hard to explain. There was one walk where the same thing was happening but I had been thinking, or reading, or listening to some teacher about these subjects and so I was noticing like watching as an outsider the thing, instead of being smack down in the middle of it. So I noticed the same thought or subject from the past, and I realized what was happening. There is the thought, I let my mind get into it, it conjures up all these bad feelings or emotions, and all of this is optional. The thought is not really "here" on this walk in this space. It only exists in my mind and it comes and goes. I don't have to give it any reality or substance in this now moment. I can willfully choose what I am paying attention to in the now.

I am saying it all now in words, but in the moment it's about realizing, understanding, words may or not be there in this process, the recognizing or understanding something new or seeing something in a new way with a new understanding. So I learned dwelling in the past using thoughts in this way was not only optional, but also it could conjure up a bad experience in the now which was not good. After I basically dismissed the whole process before it got going and was happy, free, and light, it only happened again one time. My attention habitually went to a thought about the past, I immediately recognized it for what it was, and poof, it was gone.

It's almost like the brain doesn't bother putting up thoughts like this anymore as I no longer have an interest in them. If such a thought comes, it goes just as fast. I don't entertain it or give it energy.

Krishnamurti talked about this a lot, but thought stops on it's own. If we are keeping our attention on the now as it is free of the conceptual or thinking, not interested in thinking, the brain seems to stop offering up thoughts. The mind becomes very quiet and still. So maybe in way we are responsible. But then what was lacking was self understanding, awareness of other ways to relate to what was, etc. Who or what is responsible for ignorance something exists? No one and nothing I would say. Maybe a lack of experience?

Every creature learns at it's own pace. It just is. I had habits of giving thoughts energy as I knew of no benefit of not indulging in this activity. I later leaned more pleasure is to be had not doing such a thing, so i found a way to not experience such a thing anymore. Life is about that, learning and refining until we find peace and no conflict within or without. 5000 years ago all these philosophers also figured out thought is playing a big role in what I am experiencing or how things are perceived and so they observed themselves to figure out how it all related. Then out of that came Buddhism and Zen and various other philosophies and religions.

How do I relate to everything else that exists with connection and harmony and peace, without conflict when my mind separates, judges, interprets, creates me and that in opposition? The answer to some was.... hmmmm... how bout no mind? No opinions and beliefs and seeking and judging...which all start where? Thoughts! Or the attention being in thought, when we can put the attention anywhere we like.

I'd just add that understanding and thought are two different things and one can use thought, higher awareness can use thought, consciousness can use thought in peaceful non-conflict creating ways. Thought is never a problem or bad in some way. What we do with it can be. In itself, it serves us. It's a tool we have. Out of it we can create an ego or a Buddha.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Thoughts, however, do eventually dissolve ... and that thought-free state is so awesome that one does not even want to disturb it with mundane thoughts ... except when it is necessary to activate the instrument of the mind just as one activates one's arm or one's leg or one's mouth.

The Korean Zen Master, Seung Sahn, has said: "When you're thinking, your mind and my mind are different. When you cut off all thinking, your mind, my mind, and everybody's minds are the same: God's mind, Buddha's mind, Christ's mind".

He also said: "Open your mouth and you're wrong". (Words are obviously inadequate. That is why some advanced teachers, whom I have met, teach in absolute silence.)

Yes I see what you mean. Its a big area alright, fleeting glimpses of bliss all the way through to rapture and levitation, through to many many other varied varities of bliss and ecstasy. The light falls in so many different ways, it falls through grace, or is sought after. I remember Ajahn Sumedho recounted a story were by he had been meditating in a remote cave for several months, and believed he had 'achieved' or arrived somewhere, he could finally see what it was all about only to descend the hill to a nearby village where he came upon some condensed milk ..which he said he duly began to gulp down...within no time the state of supreme and lasting bliss was gone !

I'm also reminded of that statement by Alan Watts, i think it was, who said if you cant meditate in a boiler room, then you cant meditate.

And also the saying, its not good enough to have a practice fit for heaven but you need a practice fit for hell.

But most definitely i hear what you say ..and there is beautiful silence...that passeth all understanding hahaha perhaps perhaps !!! ...

thanks for the opportunity

[sky]

Thoughts are like uninvited guests, some will keep knocking until you give them attention and let them in, if you entertain them they'll stay longer. Ignore them and they'll simply go away and leave you in peace

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Thoughts, however, do eventually dissolve ... and that thought-free state is so awesome that one does not even want to disturb it with mundane thoughts ... except when it is necessary to activate the instrument of the mind just as one activates one's arm or one's leg or one's mouth.

The Korean Zen Master, Seung Sahn, has said: "When you're thinking, your mind and my mind are different. When you cut off all thinking, your mind, my mind, and everybody's minds are the same: God's mind, Buddha's mind, Christ's mind".

He also said: "Open your mouth and you're wrong". (Words are obviously inadequate. That is why some advanced teachers, whom I have met, teach in absolute silence.)

' some advanced teachers, whom I have met, teach in absolute silence.)[/quote] '


My Mother used that method to teach me, one look was enough no words needed.