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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Auras & Chakras

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  #51  
Old 17-06-2011, 03:35 PM
SerpentQueen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
I have strong experience of the malleable nature of time, but of course, not on this physical level. History exists. Here, when a person says as Uma did that images prove kundalini has been "recognized since ancient times", they are not simply interpreting the images on a timeless level as you suggest -- they are making claims about what the makers of the images actually meant by them.

Dear me, it's a terrible amount of trouble to go to, to actually listen to the voices of the people who made the images and really understand as best we can what they actually meant!

How much easier it would be, simply to say the images mean what we choose them to mean!

But that of course could only be true to us in the present. It is a completely different question whether this or that nation or culture or time period knew about the kundalini process. There is evidence in some cases for that, but not in others. And without evidence, simply declaring that true is repainting history with no regard for the people concerned, a human habit which tends to have bad consequences.

Surely you do know that history is re-written all the time, no? The Texas state board of education and Sarah Palin have been doing that right before our very eyes!

You *cannot* trust history. Period.

You cannot even trust science! Try to get at the Truth through observation - like a good scientist conducting experiments, measuring and weighing - all you want, but realize that Quantum observer effect has already proven that you, by observing, will influence the outcome of what you want to measure. If you want to prove your thesis that not all Serpent images represent Kundalini, then that is what you will get, when you open the box. If Uma wants to prove otherwise, that is what she will get. The Truth is YOU'RE both right. The cat is both dead and alive.

And science is already showing that what we do in the present or the future, can directly re-write our past. Personally, I like the theories that say time flows backwards (which would explain all the syncs), but I'm open to the idea time doesn't exist or is weirder than we could ever imagine.

That's not to say that studying history can't be fruitful and productive - but I'm with Uma on this. It's not to be taking literally, because it may not even exist, and certainly doesn't exist in a linear fashion as we experience here as humans. No, history is merely stories with rich symbols and archetypes to follow in one's spiritual quest. If you listen closely, universe is talking.

Be more abstract, less concrete. With concrete shoes, you'll sink to the bottom.
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  #52  
Old 17-06-2011, 03:39 PM
SerpentQueen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Um... no. It is 'NASA pyramids on the moon' stuff, not my thing.

It has 4 references to that in the book; you can certainly disregard that part entirely (I did), and still glean some interesting insights. It's an exhaustive look at Serpent references throughout all cultures. Yes, the author extrapolates his own interpretation, but you don't have to agree with him.
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  #53  
Old 17-06-2011, 03:47 PM
Chrysaetos Chrysaetos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
Have you and Prokopton read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Return-Serpents-Wisdom-Amaru-Pinkham/dp/0932813518

Highly recommend. Not saying it's the "Truth" (that is for you to decide) but it certainly gives an interesting take on things, and leaves lots to think about.
No I haven't. I am already reading enough books as it is, and New Age ones are not at the top of my list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
The Truth is YOU'RE both right. The cat is both dead and alive.
I'm afraid not.. you're both having a hypothesis, that's all. Comparing interpretation of art to science is pretty dull.
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  #54  
Old 17-06-2011, 03:59 PM
Prokopton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
Surely you do know that history is re-written all the time, no? The Texas state board of education and Sarah Palin have been doing that right before our very eyes!

But I don't get my history from Sarah Palin and the Texas State board of education.

Sure, history is rewritten all the time... by people who do research into it. The bias against history in this age is formidable (because people want to escape it) but the records remain. Saying you 'cannot trust it period' is just a sign of not wanting to read it! Which is common enough and not 'sinful'! But not my approach.

Quote:
If you want to prove your thesis that not all Serpent images represent Kundalini, then that is what you will get, when you open the box.

Well misappropriated QM stuff aside, I don't set out to prove one single thesis -- I remain open to the actual evidence of what people say (not all of them dead!) and modify my version of reality to fit in with their experiences, as well as my own, as sensitively and intelligently as I can, as opposed to keeping a single theory intact come what evidence might. And that is an ongoing process. The only other way is to ignore what people say about it and that doesn't get you anywhere.

As far as 'measurement' is concerned, it can tell you stuff to do with the kundalini process (because physical changes happen during that process, in terms of hormones, endocrine, parasympathetic dominance etc. etc.). And these are not subject to quantum revisionism! But also, simply listening to what people say about their experiences can tell you a lot, and that's not "measurement", let alone measurement of quanta. Although I rarely talk about my experiences I'm knee deep in them.

Quote:
No, history is merely stories with rich symbols and archetypes

History is the record of the past, written by people attempting to make such a record for the benefit of the future... and much of it highly useful in the present -- including some things which, if ignored, cost humanity dearly. (Read the history of stock market crashes sometime ^_^.)

On the 'myths and symbols' front, here's an example: before Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs were translated, some people didn't believe they were a language, but simply put the meanings onto them that they chose to project. Whole books were written about that way of interpreting them. Athanasius Kircher, a Jesuit and esotericist of great repute then and now, produced a particularly fascinating example full of lurid claims about what all the signs meant... then, lo and behold, the Rosetta Stone was found! Suddenly the real language could be decoded, and then we knew what it really said -- which bore little resemblance to what people had decided it said before the translation.

The use of symbols from the past is often like that. The past really exists, and the people who made the symbologies had specific meanings in mind. Of course, we're free to put our meanings on their symbols! But we can't say that our meanings "are" their meanings! That is a statement about fact, and in order to know facts, you need to investigate them -- and be prepared to take account of what you find.

Quote:
Be more abstract, less concrete. With concrete shoes, you'll sink to the bottom

On the contrary, I'd say without one's feet deeply planted on the earth, one threatens to become seriously ungrounded. As I mentioned, I know very well time behaves differently in non-physical locales, but in this reality, history exists and cultural meaning exists (and not just here either.) The decision to ignore physical and cultural history doesn't make its reality go away. :)

Last edited by Prokopton : 17-06-2011 at 05:29 PM.
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  #55  
Old 17-06-2011, 04:21 PM
Prokopton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Um... no. It is 'NASA pyramids on the moon' stuff, not my thing.

It has 4 references to that in the book; you can certainly disregard that part entirely (I did), and still glean some interesting insights. It's an exhaustive look at Serpent references throughout all cultures. Yes, the author extrapolates his own interpretation, but you don't have to agree with him.

Sorry, I didn't mean that the pyramid/Mars stuff was the only problem I had with it! A quick look in the Amazon reader produced a gigantic modern mythological pop-religious tract about serpents and dragons battling their Christian enemies, including its own creation myth, details of angels as aspects of the 'primal serpent', serpents moving between planets with ease etc. etc. And the publisher, I notice, also produces a few volumes on anti-gravity! This is not a mere catalogue of 'serpent references'... :)

What I meant was, like Chrysateos I have a lot to read, and there are plenty of sources on serpent imagery, myth and history without going to that kind of thing. I notice the authors are also offering tours to serpent religious locations!

That said, if it is your thing, go for it. It ain't mine, that's all.
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  #56  
Old 17-06-2011, 05:39 PM
SerpentQueen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
The decision to ignore physical and cultural history doesn't make its reality go away. :)

Whoever said I ignore it? That is your assumption. And it's incorrect.
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  #57  
Old 17-06-2011, 05:46 PM
Prokopton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
Whoever said I ignore it? That is your assumption. And it's incorrect.

Oh you may well not! But a lot of people do.
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  #58  
Old 17-06-2011, 07:28 PM
SerpentQueen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Oh you may well not! But a lot of people do.

True.

I admit I have an awful time memorizing dates and details of what I learn, though. My brain doesn't work that way. It's better at absorbing the patterns and making the connections and over-arching themes. And I suck at Trivia night too. :-(
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  #59  
Old 17-06-2011, 09:56 PM
Prokopton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
I admit I have an awful time memorizing dates and details of what I learn, though. My brain doesn't work that way. It's better at absorbing the patterns and making the connections and over-arching themes.

Ah, well if it comes to that, me too! I sucked at academic history and it wasn't until I read Spengler's dizzyingly brilliant Decline of the West, which shows a huge pattern underlying history in a truly comprehensive manner and even has a spiritual element thrown in (although it's not new age!) that I found a way of reading history that mattered to me.

Even then I'm not great on the dates thing. I see the whole sweep first, and then if (for some strange reason!) I need to remember dates I can go back and fill some in. However knowing the general order and time things happened in is fascinating, because it does give that overall sweep. I'm reading two books right now: one about some late ancient spiritual philosophy (descendents of Plato), and another about the historical King Arthur. The fact that they occurred at the same time does add a dimension, especially when you consider the rampant cultural decline Rome experienced is something we are experiencing now. :)

All that said, the point about history in this thread is much simpler -- it does exist as a body of knowledge, constantly revised and conjectured over, yes, but it does. We can, broadly, say some things are true or false, or (so often!) that we don't know, and this does include the questions of which culture knew what and when, which can be very very interesting ones in my opinion...
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  #60  
Old 18-06-2011, 02:49 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
It has 4 references to that in the book; you can certainly disregard that part entirely (I did), and still glean some interesting insights. It's an exhaustive look at Serpent references throughout all cultures. Yes, the author extrapolates his own interpretation, but you don't have to agree with him.

Maybe kandalini has nothing to do with snakes.
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