Meditation - Essential to Buddhism

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Essential to have romantic relationships with many students and maintain "guru" status? Probably so as one has to keep up external evidence one is advanced in some way and beyond animal drives when one is not. But some blame is in the students as well that accept an "advanced spiritually person" an authority on Buddhism, can also act like an animal. But then justifying animal drives and behaviors and pretending they are of some divine nature is not new or unusual. Clearly egotistic associative phenomena going on there as well. Like how one can feel more important and vain if one is in a relationship with a celebrity or powerful person. There are a lot of benefits that come with a relationship with a leader of an organization.

Here I have to say – I honestly do not know.

But I do know there is a sexual element in igniting the inner fire and bringing the energies, the ‘winds’ into the central channel.

In Tantra – we are talking about the energy-body.

https://buddhism-controversy-blog.co...hh-dalai-lama/

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It is a good practice to suspend judgement about things we do not have firsthand experience about, rather than blanketing everything presented with our pre-conceived ideas/opinions overlay.

So why take refuge in the habitual and conditioned mind and its horn-of-plenty-compulsive-thinking of ideas …….

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Originally Posted by Phaelyn

The sitting would not be essential or important at all. It would be what one gets out of it. What one does or is as a result of it. If one sits for an hour everyday, then goes back to being a mean delusional selfish self centered person, it had no value at all.

Rather than making assumptions, I'd recommend doing the practice first and then speaking from your experience, when you would have gained it.

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[Gem]

Only trust Buddhism guidance of those who abide by principles of sila.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I don't find anything useful or true in his teachings myself. What is essential is to know our true nature as Bodhidharma said. Bodhidharma also said dogma and practices without knowing our true nature are worthless or something like that.

It's one my of little missions to keep 'Buddhist teacher' within the realm of respectability, so I don't give credit to drunken philanderers whosschools are not worthy of refuge. Trungpa created the conditions for untold harm, but people still think he's 'special', and that disturbs me, because it was all a big con then and his legacy school is all a big con today. They just appointed a known rapist to the trust and Chodron resigned over it. She actually seems worthy of the title 'teacher', but she isn;t prepared to become complicit in atrocity like she did last time. This makes me respect her, because last time she was fooled and covered up the rapes and pedophilia, she regretted it and publically apologised. This time she is showing her apology is not just lip service and really means that she's not going to do the same mistake again.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I don't find anything useful or true in his teachings myself. What is essential is to know our true nature as Bodhidharma said. Bodhidharma also said dogma and practices without knowing our true nature are worthless or something like that.

You must have felt very uncomfortable with your original Post to remove/edit so much of it, did you have second thoughts to which you are entitled.

He and Gem sounded similar anyway, so I guess one of theirs was enough.

JL

Originally Posted by Gem

It's one my of little missions to keep 'Buddhist teacher' within the realm of respectability

To be that Crusader, you would first want to be a real practicing Buddhist of realization, in my opinion. If you are not, you risk throwing good teachings and realities under the rug, as you are blinded by the hate and disgust towards teachings and teachers you dislike.

Trungpa Rinpoche's teachings are some of the best, and stand on their own.

Many schools are also not as straight laced as the way you like it, Gem. For example, you choosing whether to chant or meditate shows how loose aversions and preferences can run in your school. The presence of a genuinely realized teacher is a boon for any true student.

I can't speak to what happened to Trungpa's school after his death, but Ryan's distaste of Gurus was clear years ago - as was yours. I agree that we don't want people getting harmed in the pursuit of religion.

Doesn't make Trungpa Rinpoche teaching's wrong and Krishnamurti had some interesting perspectives -- don't listen to anyone, while many bowed at his feet and idolized his teachings. It's all perspective and real life experience does count, in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't consider your taste and approach of Buddhism to be my approach or preference, but thank you for your practice.

JL

[Phaelyn]

That post was about the relationship between what one says and what one does. Like say the director of an orphanage says, "we must formally bow before the statue of our founding director twice a day to be outstanding spiritual persons" and so twice a day the director and the orphans all bow before the statue. This director also beats the children all day long over the most innocent behaviors, like smiling, talking, moving while seated.... Observing all of this, would we say formally bowing before the statue made the abusive director an outstanding spiritual person? But then somewhere far away, at the orphanages headquarters in Norway, where nice kind directors "outstanding spiritual persons" are, they all bow before the statue of their founding director twice a day as it is a custom and tradition.

See doing is holistic. It cannot be divorced from the person doing it. What it is, is determined by the one doing it. Meditation can be an selfish egotistic activity or a spiritual activity. It depends on the one doing it what it actually is. Maybe some city foster directors send all the children they can to the abusive directors orphanage because they hear about the bowing before the statues and they think, oh that must be a wonderful place as they bow there and teach to be outstanding spiritual persons.... then more children are sent there and suffer horrible abuse.

It's not that meditation is essential to Buddhism, don't condense the teachings to a simplified slogan. The Eightfold Path consists of eight practices: right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi.

As Bodhidharma said, without knowing one's true nature, practices have no value. Right conduct..... wrong conduct with formal meditation practice.... not Buddhism, Not Buddhist. One can also say, "Right Conduct is Essential to Buddhism"

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by janielee

Doesn't make Trungpa Rinpoche teaching's wrong and Krishnamurti had some interesting perspectives

Their teachings on meditation are completely opposite. Krishnamurti said meditation cannot be divorced from daily life, that meditation is not a separate thing and in fact to separate it, makes it about ego and fragmentation. From the quotes posted here, it seems T says not only is it separate from daily life, moment to moment awareness 24/7, therein lies it's value. In the separating.

Like now I'm pursuing something spiritual, now I forget all that and just live my life. Like I go to church on Sunday, then on Friday nights, I go get drunk. I went to an all day meditation once....from 8am to 5pm....mostly silence for 8 hours... some chanting etc.... at the end.... all went outside and the loud chattering commenced... gossiping..... unconscious rapid talking...people were so happy the meditation was over.... but they did it right.... there was pride there.... like I made it to the end of a marathon.... ego.. I did this hard spiritual thing! I am in the club now! That's the problem K was talking about. To separate it. But everyone is an individual. It's different things to different people. Meditation is not one thing obviously, to some it's just deep stress reduction, relaxing, taking a life time out....to others it's like I will swallow my tongue and see god.... go into trance states or whatever..... to others it's a part of my job.....I'm a monk and so have to do this activity at this time.... or I'm kicked out....so I make the best of it....others never do it nor have any interest in it... we decide what it is and what we are, moment to moment, in the now

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

From the quotes posted here, it seems T says not only is it separate from daily life, moment to moment awareness 24/7, therein lies it's value. In the separating.

No, that's not what he said at all.
Ironic that you reacted so extraordinarily to a teaching that clearly shows sitting meditation is essential to Buddhist practices

Bodhidharma is the teacher who extolled everyone to find a teacher, to not waste this life in vain. Taking his quotes out of context serves no-one, in my opinion. Nor does misinterpreting a teacher's teachings.

JL

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

That post was about the relationship between what one says and what one does. Like say the director of an orphanage says, "we must formally bow before the statue of our founding director twice a day to be outstanding spiritual persons" and so twice a day the director and the orphans all bow before the statue. This director also beats the children all day long over the most innocent behaviors, like smiling, talking, moving while seated.... Observing all of this, would we say formally bowing before the statue made the abusive director an outstanding spiritual person? But then somewhere far away, at the orphanages headquarters in Norway, where nice kind directors "outstanding spiritual persons" are, they all bow before the statue of their founding director twice a day as it is a custom and tradition.

See doing is holistic. It cannot be divorced from the person doing it. What it is, is determined by the one doing it. Meditation can be an selfish egotistic activity or a spiritual activity. It depends on the one doing it what it actually is. Maybe some city foster directors send all the children they can to the abusive directors orphanage because they hear about the bowing before the statues and they think, oh that must be a wonderful place as they bow there and teach to be outstanding spiritual persons.... then more children are sent there and suffer horrible abuse.

It's not that meditation is essential to Buddhism, don't condense the teachings to a simplified slogan. The Eightfold Path consists of eight practices: right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi.

As Bodhidharma said, without knowing one's true nature, practices have no value. Right conduct..... wrong conduct with formal meditation practice.... not Buddhism, Not Buddhist. One can also say, "Right Conduct is Essential to Buddhism"

' Right Conduct is Essential to Buddhism '

You could say that applies to all belief systems, but the problem is what is right to some is wrong to others so it's not straight cut.

I know very little about Chogyam Thungpa's behaviour except what I have read.
As JL said previously His Teachings are exceptional, can we seperate the Person from His/Her Teachings ? I think it's possible.

Whoever allowed Him to act as He did is as much to blame as He himself. He could never have carried on with His abuse etc: without others aiding and abetting.

Has anyone thought as I personally do is that He was Mentally ill and Alcohol made it worse. He also said that He was abused by His Teacher as a Youngster, that in itself wouldn't have helped. He obviously had problems and should have been given Medical help which might have changed His life for the better, who knows....