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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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  #11  
Old 02-03-2020, 04:29 AM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 1
@ Altair and Hallow

Gotta agree with aspects of what both of you said.....Humans did indeed evolve as the "thinking hunter".

When modern humans came on the scene roughly 250,000 years ago we were literally unlike any species the world had ever known.

A huge calculating and tool making brain (made big by eating the fat and protein you get from eating animals) ....sharp eyesight and instead of fangs and claws....an amazing hand with an apposable thumb.

And as a true omnivore....a digestive system that can find nutrition in just about anything edible.

Science has also proved that aside from hunting we scavenged carcasses where practical......and to this end the human nose has the ability to detect spoilage in meat that is unparalleled in the animal kingdom.

Our nose and brain could detect if a carcass was fresh enough to eat better than any other animal on this planet!

Where I believe veganism really fails people is that it ignores a quarter of a million years of our fine genetic heritage as the thinking hunter....it literally ignores what made us great!

If your nose is so great, why is it we only have about 6 million smell receptors whereas a dog has 300 million. And apparently the part of their brain that analyses smells is 40x bigger than that part of our brain. I guess our noses 'ain't all that', if you know what I mean. www.pbs.org › wgbh › nova › article › dogs-sense-of-smell

By the way, a bear's sense of smell is 7x greater than a bloodhounds or 2100x greater than ours. https://sectionhiker.com/bears_sense_of_smell/

So your suggestion that the human nose is unparalleled in the natural world is completely incorrect. If anything, I'll bet lots of early humans suffered from food poisoning from eating rotten meat.
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2020, 04:39 AM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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It's also been discovered that some early Neanderthals (remains found Asturias, Spain, and in Belgium from up to 50,000 years ago) were found to have been vegetarians. Dental plaque scraped from the teeth of the Belgium inhabitants did contain DNA from wooly mammoths, but the ones from Spain and Austurias (Austria?)were found to contain no animal protein. So include Spanish Neanderthals with the ancient Egyptians plus a bunch of others (Jains, Chinese Buddhists, Taoists, early Greeks like Pythagorus) to groups who were vegetarians a long time ago.

Other testing determined that one individual of their subjects made use of a natural form of penicillin and willow bark to control pain from an abscess in his jaw. Interesting stuff eh? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a7619081.html
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  #13  
Old 02-03-2020, 10:30 PM
Lucky 1 Lucky 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
If your nose is so great, why is it we only have about 6 million smell receptors whereas a dog has 300 million. And apparently the part of their brain that analyses smells is 40x bigger than that part of our brain. I guess our noses 'ain't all that', if you know what I mean. www.pbs.org › wgbh › nova › article › dogs-sense-of-smell

By the way, a bear's sense of smell is 7x greater than a bloodhounds or 2100x greater than ours. https://sectionhiker.com/bears_sense_of_smell/

So your suggestion that the human nose is unparalleled in the natural world is completely incorrect. If anything, I'll bet lots of early humans suffered from food poisoning from eating rotten meat.


I never said we have the best nose in the animal kingdom....what I said...and is well researched.. is that the human nose has a special adaptation for sniffing out inedible meat...far better than any other species....the fact that we scavenged along with being a hunting species is well documneted
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  #14  
Old 14-03-2020, 11:57 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Debrah,

1] Carnivore animals are generally smarter, but sure you can find many herbivores that are 'smart' too, it's just that carnivores stand out more and they have to based on how they survive in this world. Elephants do happen to be an exception if we look at the animal species that are considered quite intelligent.

2] Banning animal sacrifice is not a command to be a vegan, or is it?

Do you recognize that people in many ancient civ's lived mostly on grains (and a bit of veg and fruit, few meats) due to what was available? For most it did not had anything to do with being a vegan or vegetarian by choice. Many would eat mostly plants, true, but would not deny themselves of a fish or a chicken when it was available. We only know of such clear abstinence choices in the history of India (starting with the upanishad and Buddhist periods, as even Vedic traditions did eat cows) and with some Christian sects later on. You name a fair number of cultures that all come from the same geographical area (India) so you make it appear as if vegan culture was some kind of big thing in the ancient world! Whether Pythagoreans were (all) vegetarians is still not clear.

Most of the time people in the ancient world simply ate grains as the staple, and produced fruit and vegetables also. Milk was part of the diet in many ancient civilizations and meat occasionally (more if you were wealthier). This is still true today if you go to many Muslim countries for example. The poorer people eat less meat. Do you think they consciously choose to live a vegan lifestyle? Why don't we see your argument at display in today's world with the poor in Egypt, Indonesia or Afghanistan?

3] There is also the issue here of what classifies meat as 'meat'. Throughout history there have been taboos on certain meats, but not on fish (again, excluding India). It wasn't unheard of for early Christians to avoid eating land animals, but still eat fish (and drinking milk, so no veganism).

4] I was confusing gorillas with monkeys and chimpanzees concerning egg consumption. Point taken.
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  #15  
Old 19-06-2020, 03:48 AM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Debrah,

1] Carnivore animals are generally smarter, but sure you can find many herbivores that are 'smart' too, it's just that carnivores stand out more and they have to based on how they survive in this world. Elephants do happen to be an exception if we look at the animal species that are considered quite intelligent.

2] Banning animal sacrifice is not a command to be a vegan, or is it?

Do you recognize that people in many ancient civ's lived mostly on grains (and a bit of veg and fruit, few meats) due to what was available? For most it did not had anything to do with being a vegan or vegetarian by choice. Many would eat mostly plants, true, but would not deny themselves of a fish or a chicken when it was available. We only know of such clear abstinence choices in the history of India (starting with the upanishad and Buddhist periods, as even Vedic traditions did eat cows) and with some Christian sects later on. You name a fair number of cultures that all come from the same geographical area (India) so you make it appear as if vegan culture was some kind of big thing in the ancient world! Whether Pythagoreans were (all) vegetarians is still not clear.

Most of the time people in the ancient world simply ate grains as the staple, and produced fruit and vegetables also. Milk was part of the diet in many ancient civilizations and meat occasionally (more if you were wealthier). This is still true today if you go to many Muslim countries for example. The poorer people eat less meat. Do you think they consciously choose to live a vegan lifestyle? Why don't we see your argument at display in today's world with the poor in Egypt, Indonesia or Afghanistan?

3] There is also the issue here of what classifies meat as 'meat'. Throughout history there have been taboos on certain meats, but not on fish (again, excluding India). It wasn't unheard of for early Christians to avoid eating land animals, but still eat fish (and drinking milk, so no veganism).

4] I was confusing gorillas with monkeys and chimpanzees concerning egg consumption. Point taken.

Of course poor people ate less meat because the kings and nobles of 'ancient times' reserved the right to hunt for themselves all too often. As for the poor today, well, humanity has instilled the idea that meat consumption is required so why are you surprised that the poor in Egypt, etc., are clamouring for meat too? Habituation and socialization has brought that about.

In looking for a little more info on Pythagorus, I came across the following:
'.....Pythagoras and his many followers practiced vegetarianism for several reasons, mainly due to religious and ethical objections. Pythagoras believed all living beings had souls. Animals were no exception, so meat and fish were banished from his table.....'
https://www.history.com/news/beans-a...-vegetarianism

As for the Japanese emperor, it was for practical (as well as some religious reasons) that meat from livestock was banned. I should say I also learned today that they still continued to eat fish and other seafood. But because Japan has limited land, it was decided for about 1200 years that they wouldn't use livestock or eat them either. https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/japan-meat-ban
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #16  
Old 19-06-2020, 08:09 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
As for the poor today, well, humanity has instilled the idea that meat consumption is required so why are you surprised that the poor in Egypt, etc., are clamouring for meat too? Habituation and socialization has brought that about.

They're not being told to want animal food. These people want/crave animal food because it's dense in nutrients. A meal with both plant and animal food is always going to be richer and gives a fuller belly compared to a meal that only has plants in it. Isn't it patronizing to suggest the poor crave it because they're told to crave it?

Human species evolved as meat eaters and if given the chance people will eat animal food. There are no vegan civilizations, only vegan individuals...
The people that only want to eat plants do so out of a deliberate choice, it's not their bodies telling them to do it.
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  #17  
Old 20-06-2020, 03:46 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
They're not being told to want animal food. These people want/crave animal food because it's dense in nutrients. A meal with both plant and animal food is always going to be richer and gives a fuller belly compared to a meal that only has plants in it. Isn't it patronizing to suggest the poor crave it because they're told to crave it?

Human species evolved as meat eaters and if given the chance people will eat animal food. There are no vegan civilizations, only vegan individuals...
The people that only want to eat plants do so out of a deliberate choice, it's not their bodies telling them to do it.


What is 'marketing' - the action or business of promoting and selling products for profit.
What is 'social pressure' - the direct influence of people by peers or the affect on an individual by peers to follow or conform to the influence of their friends in behaviour or attitudes.

When my babies were little, they loved the mashed peas, the mashed sweet potato, the applesauces, etc., but they hated the pureed chicken, etc. So I taught them (by making them eat it) to accept the animal products. Craving the sugars is natural as that is where our energy comes from and is the energy source (glucose) that our brains require.

And that is how our children are caused to want animal foods, leading to adulthood where most people think they have to eat animal products because that's what we're taught. And that goes for rich and poor alike. What we're seeing too as countries become 'richer', more and more people are moving away from the simple, healthful diets that they used to eat (beans and rice and veggies and fruits) to include meat and dairy. The upshot of that kind of change is increasing weight gain to obesity and poor health outcomes and the increase in consumed saturated fat from those animal products has a direct correlation. (see the link: Increased saturated fat intake correlates with obesity and type 2 diabetes and with “cholesterol, clogged arteries, heart attacks, and strokes”)

So what people crave is not 'animal products' per se, but fats and sugars and we learn to crave salt.

An interesting excerpt from the link following: Salt, sugar, and fat are “the three pillars of processed food” With sugar and fat intake, brain pleasure centers light up bright yellow in functional magnetic resonance imaging studies, just as with cocaine ......So even the food manufacturers are aware of and work with our real cravings.

I'd be willing to bet that if you thought you were craving meat, and I handed you a slab of raw or boiled liver (a source of vitamin A,D, E, K, iron, protein) with no salt or seasonings of any kind, your 'craving' would not win. But if I handed you a bowl of well seasoned curry, with sweet potatoes, greens and lentils in it and over a bowl of brown rice or quinoa, all those cravings would be met and you'd be getting a boatload of nutrients along with that great taste. Plus the turmeric/pepper in the seasoning goes a long way toward cancer prevention (because turmeric kills cancer stem cells, Yahooo!).

Note: the link here provided is not a vegan website, but a site that looks at and compiles the information that is found in studies of every kind with regards to human health. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059590/
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #18  
Old 20-06-2020, 03:57 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
When my babies were little, they loved the mashed peas, the mashed sweet potato, the applesauces, etc., but they hated the pureed chicken, etc. So I taught them (by making them eat it) to accept the animal products. Craving the sugars is natural as that is where our energy comes from and is the energy source (glucose) that our brains require.

Every child starts with milk and soft foods. Our bodies develop. It is biology, not psychology..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
I'd be willing to bet that if you thought you were craving meat, and I handed you a slab of raw or boiled liver (a source of vitamin A,D, E, K, iron, protein) with no salt or seasonings of any kind, your 'craving' would not win.

And if I gave you raw beans and cauliflower you probably wouldn't like it either...
Craving for liver would win if you are hungry enough.

Humans cook food and add spices and herbs. They do this with meat and they do this with vegetables. Raw meat and raw vegetables are eaten as well.
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  #19  
Old 20-06-2020, 04:31 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Human species evolved as meat eaters and if given the chance people will eat animal food. There are no vegan civilizations, only vegan individuals...
The people that only want to eat plants do so out of a deliberate choice, it's not their bodies telling them to do it.

Did you know that remains of Neanderthals have been found, that indicate that some groups were vegetarian?
******

'.....In a startling demonstration of just how astonishing science can be, a team of researchers from Spain, Australia and the UK were able to extract DNA from the plaque that allowed them to tell what the individuals had eaten.
Neanderthals were thought to be enthusiastic meat eaters and an analysis of the remains found in Belgium revealed DNA from woolly rhinoceroses and wild sheep, along with a few mushrooms.

But the teeth of the Spanish group revealed they had eaten wild mushrooms, pine nuts and moss, but no evidence of meat, according to a paper in the journal Nature......'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a7619081.html
*****

And just because there were no vegan civilizations, doesn't negate the fact that health researchers today are showing that you can thrive on a plants only diet. For example, I haven't eaten meat in about 25 years and no dairy or eggs for the past 13 and my health at 65, is excellent.

The problem with a standard Western style, meat inclusive diet is that it leads to a state of chronic, low grade inflammation in your tissue. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23865797/ Unfortunately for those following a standard Western diet, chronic low grade inflammation often leads to cancer and heart disease. From the following link: 'Chronic inflammation has been linked to certain diseases such as heart disease or stroke, and may also lead to autoimmune disorders, such as rheumatoid arthritis and lupus....' https://www.livescience.com/52344-inflammation.html

People who are suffering from heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, MS, skin issues, very often discover that as they exclude animal products from their diets, their symptoms decrease and frequently disappear entirely, making it possible to quit using the myriad prescriptions that their doctors have told them will be their new way of life.

If you were interested in reading some testimonials that point to the benefits of sick people dropping animal products from their diets, you can check out this FB page. https://www.facebook.com/thevitalble...tion_gen eric
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #20  
Old 20-06-2020, 04:38 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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I thought we were talking about our own species..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
And just because there were no vegan civilizations, doesn't negate the fact that health researchers today are showing that you can thrive on a plants only diet. For example, I haven't eaten meat in about 25 years and no dairy or eggs for the past 13 and my health at 65, is excellent.
That is N=1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
The problem with a standard Western style, meat inclusive diet is that it leads to a state of chronic, low grade inflammation in your tissue.

You create a dichotomy between veganism on the one hand and a ''standard Western style'' on the other.
This ''standard Western style'' diet doesn't even exist, it's a fantasy of researchers that haven't a clue. What is ''West'' to begin with? They can't even define. If I go to Sweden I'll see different food in restaurants and take-aways than if I go to the US or to Japan, Chile, or Spain. There is no singular ''Western style diet''. It is fabrication and used to create a false narrative and offer veganism as a solution. Any researcher claiming to know what a ''standard Western diet'' is has an agenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
People who are suffering from heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, MS, skin issues, very often discover that as they exclude animal products from their diets, their symptoms decrease and frequently disappear entirely, making it possible to quit using the myriad prescriptions that their doctors have told them will be their new way of life.

I don't believe any of that. Some of those issues are related more to junkfood than to animal food. Some of the healthiest populations include fish, dairy and meat as part of the diet. No examples of vegan populations, only a few individuals and most go back to vegetarianism or meat eating.
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