A bit on conceptualizing the intangible and explaining the unseen to sceptics and oth

[NoOne]

@Busby
I'm not an advocate for anti-science views. Simply put, empirical science is a limited method for studying reality, it leaves out an awful lot of reality, by necessity.

There are many suppositions of science that are held as articles of faith and are essentially dogma, even though they stand on pretty shaky foundations. One would be the idea that consciousness is generated by the brain, as are emotions or even that memories are stored in the brain.

Fact is, nobody has ever been able to show a single scrap of brain matter and prove that memories are stored there. We don't understand the first thing about human consciousness, or how memory and thoughts work. Then there are a whole raft of commonly observed everyday phenomena that science simply chooses to ignore, because no explanation can be provided within our current framework of understanding. This is literally ignorance or burying your head in the sand. That is why I use the term Ignoramus, it describes a person that chooses to ignore aspects of reality that are inconvenient for his belief system very well.

Originally Posted by NoOne

That is why I use the term Ignoramus, it describes a person that chooses to ignore aspects of reality that are inconvenient for his belief system very well.

Science and Spirituality are two different aspects of the same thing, Spirituality is the "What?" and science is the "How?"

What you are talking about there is cognitive dissonance, which essentially is the ignorance of or the inability to perceive that which isn't compatible with their current paradigm. For some the ignorance is unconscious because everybody has something they simply can't process. I can't process to play music, some people can't process Spirituality and for the most part Spiritual people can't process psychology. Others make the choice to ignore because it erodes their egoistic sense of status.

The current thinking is that memories are stored externally to the brain and that the brain is more of an input/output than storage. Thoughts arise from the unconscious and, if we're very lucky, some 90-120ms later we become aware of them. According to Donald Hoffman, "The objective reality is that all reality is subjective." Which reality are you talking about?

Emotions are created by a differentiation that is created by the Jungian ego between our internal and internal realities. They are a response to how we perceive relative to that ego or "Sense of I am." The experiencer and the experience are one and the same.

As for consciousness, according to David Chalmers the 'Hard Problem' is understanding how personal experience becomes consciousness.

We don't know what reality is, outside of our own limitations to perceive it. What we are conscious of is only some 10-15% of our total consciousness and that is the reality. The reality is that in both science and Spirituality 'you' don't make the choice between what is real or not, that's decided for you by your unconscious frameworks. What created that OP of yours doesn't exist.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Busby

If we continue to 'believe' in such things as karma, kundalini, chakras, ghosts, paranormal experiences, in fact the whole range of esoterics without calling upon science to find an explanation then we'll be struggling with the same questions for centuries.

The problem here is that science cannot explain these things because science currently lacks the means to observe and measure such phenomena. Therefore the material scientist dismisses these things as unreal.

So scientists have the problem of trying to explain the universe while ignoring many aspects of that which they are trying to explain. One day science will develop to the stage where that which is currently hidden will become known. Until then, science will struggle with these questions.

In the meantime those of us who accept the esoteric perspective have no problem with the existence of karma, kundalini, chakras, ghosts, paranormal experiences, etc.

Peace

[Busby]

Originally Posted by NoOne

@Busby
Then there are a whole raft of commonly observed everyday phenomena that science simply chooses to ignore, because no explanation can be provided within our current framework of understanding. This is literally ignorance or burying your head in the sand. That is why I use the term Ignoramus, it describes a person that chooses to ignore aspects of reality that are inconvenient for his belief system very well.

I don't think that science chooses to ignore anything. There is just not yet enough evidence to offer any clues as to what really goes on. Stevenson was never able to come to any conclusion about his investigations into re-incarnation. My mother (while still young) observed a ball of lightning come in through the open living room window, cross the room and go out up the chimney. Many other people have over centuries reported similar odd happenings.

Science denies such things.

I myself personally regularly chew over those odd and not explainable things which have happened to me.
In the case of ball lightning it has taken many years for science to accept that there is such a thing - but science has got there. Just as it will eventually be able to explain, more and more, how the laws of nature work.

We still know nothing. Placing the cause into the lap of some supernatural entity won't get us anywhere.

[NoOne]

@Busby
Balls of lightning are also my favourite example of where science has eventually caught up with commonly observed phenomena that were previously consigned to the "paranormal" or "looney" bin. Now they can create them in labs. UAPs are also getting there slowly, but surely. There will be many other examples as science progresses, with telepathy, premonition and the "sense of being stared at" probably next in line.

@Greenslade
You are presenting theoretical suppositions as established facts. All I'm saying is that i don't know and neither do scientists, so let's give ourselves a bit of slack and acknowledge that there is a large amount of phenomena within human experience and consciousness that do not fit currently established scientific frameworks, but that doesn't make them any less real. My main issue is with dismissive and ridiculing attitude many sceptics have towards phenomena they don't understand or have not experienced themselves, so they tend to go straight to disbelief and a closed mindset.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Busby

I don't think that science chooses to ignore anything. There is just not yet enough evidence to offer any clues as to what really goes on.

I have to disagree.

Dean Radin, in one of his books (I forget which one), describes conducting a meta-analysis of various studies of paranormal abilities which showed that such abilities exist and are genuine by scientific standards. He submitted his paper to Nature, the prestigious science magazine. They refused to publish it, not because the methodology was flawed but because they did not want to be associated with anything which supported the paranormal.

Science is not as objective as we might like to imagine. Scientists who want to investigate the paranormal risk their reputations and their funding. So such research remains on the fringe, ignored by mainstream science.

Some day mainstream science will have to consider the paranormal in order to grasp the bigger picture. In the meantime the various esoteric teachings currently available provide plenty of answers as to what is really going on.

Peace

[Busby]

Originally Posted by iamthat

I have to disagree.
Scientists who want to investigate the paranormal risk their reputations and their funding. So such research remains on the fringe, ignored by mainstream science.
Some day mainstream science will have to consider the paranormal in order to grasp the bigger picture. In the meantime the various esoteric teachings currently available provide plenty of answers as to what is really going on.

I have to agree (in part).

It has long been my POV that science should at least make a start and begin to look at some of these happenings to which we have given the name 'paranornal'. In my own case and of those things which have happened in my life and cannot be explained I'm sure (because it has happened) that any scientifically educated person would pass such experiences on as nonsense.

Following a tip on SFs - a youtube report by Prof. Dr. Oliver.S.Lazar, I bought his book (in German) 'Jenseits von Materie' and have already devoted more than a couple of hours to what he has to say. Lazar is a phycisist, a MD and is now a professor of informatik in Düsseldorf. Obviously a highly competent and intelligent scientist who through a combination of factors in his personal life came into contact with the 'other side'.
He was immediately converted (go to you tube - it's undertitled in English), and now in a 400 page book filled with information of all kinds he attempts to get his 'understanding' across. His words reflect his admiration for the Arthur Findlay College in England and for what is for him an undeniable contact with a passed-over neighbour's daughter.

To keep it short: He is a stuck as anyone else when it comes to any sort of explanation. There is no obvious place to start when he fills the pages with all kinds of facts and figures - his own amazement at this 'contact' is obvious but a point where he or science could hook onto is simply not there.

There is 'something', that is also my own personal belief (I have already made up my own mind as to what 'it' is) I cannot be convinced that it is anything supernatural. We'll find it in nature.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Busby

There is 'something', that is also my own personal belief (I have already made up my own mind as to what 'it' is) I cannot be convinced that it is anything supernatural. We'll find it in nature.

Indeed, the paranormal is all natural phenomena, not something which is beyond nature. Sometimes we just have to expand our understanding of nature.

Peace

[Native spirit]

I can understand where you are coming from.
I was born seeing and hearing spirit.I to came across some ignorant people.
because they didn't understand me so i was called all sorts.
My family were the worst, they wanted me to see a Psychiatrist,
Everything i said according to them i was mad.
My grandmother Helped me she understood me because she was the same.
We had a bond that words were not needed.
we understood each other.



Namaste

[NoOne]

@Native_spirit
That is a great gift you have. I have a friend who can also see spirits, which happened after a motorcycle accident and an NDE, where he was brought back to life. I can only sense the presence of spirits and interact with them in certain ways, but I was never able to actually see them. One exception, when a goddess appeared in my room, I saw her as a pure white light.

May I ask, when you see spirits, what do they look like to you? Do you see human shapes, ghostly figures, perhaps half-animal, half-human chimeras?