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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 28-09-2022, 01:12 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Where does contrast come from?

Since the nondual absolute doesn't actually produce anything. It simply is.

Where does that contrasting cycle come from, where, suddenly, there is a perceived lack, subtle chaos/variety, and it produces expansion, also of desire and preference, which yield more contrast and more variety and may bring more suffering/chaos/variety to produce more new realisation of more and new preferences and more expansion and new reality.

And often we return also to Nondual being. Where there is simply nothing but isness.

And then from that simple beingness, suddenly a desire emerges, a movement, a variety, a newness, a change, a dynamic, a cycle, an energy, a vibration, a duality, a relativity, a contrast, a duality. And it begins all over again. This subtle dynamic/chaos/variety/contrast/duality produces new desire/preferences, which yield new reality and on and on and on and on it goes.

How does that happen? Where does that cycle come from? Since the nondual is not responsible for it. The absolute is not responsible for it. And yet it keeps happening in INFINITE variety of ways.

Almost as if there is an infiite supply of chaos. Yet, what or where or how does the fuel come from that produces clarity out of chaos? Is it also chaos? And if so, who is using that chaos that way, to harness it or produce clarity out of it? Is it chaos itself which is doing that? How and why does chaos clarify itself?
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  #2  
Old 28-09-2022, 04:34 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Indian philosophy teaches that there are never-ending cycles of manvantara or manifestation (the out-breath of Brahma) and pralaya or dissolution (the in-breath of Brahma).

A manvantara produces the ten thousand things with all their chaos and variety. Pralaya is the return to emptiness, to simply Being.

Th great cycle is a mahamanvantara, a period of time equal to the lifespan of Brahma: 311,040,000,000,000 years (in Earth time). And within the great cycle there are numerous mini-manvantaras and mini-pralayas.

Thus a day of Brahma is 4.32 billion years followed by an equal night of Brahma.

A year of Brahma is 360 days and nights of Brahma.

And a life of Brahma is 100 years of Brahma.

No doubt these Indian sages had their reasons for coming up with these unimaginably long periods of time.

And we humans also have our manvantaras and pralayas as in the cycle of birth and death. And every morning when we wake up we start a new mini-manvantara and every night when we go to sleep we enter a new mini-pralaya.

So Creation is always coming into manifestation and going out of manifestation. As are we. As above, so below.

As for how and why, these are other questions.

Peace

Last edited by iamthat : 28-09-2022 at 06:16 PM.
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  #3  
Old 28-09-2022, 05:25 PM
Lord_Viskey Lord_Viskey is offline
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I should think a little backstepping might be in order from : "Since the Non-Dual is not responsible for it".

If we are to assume that all cognizance must have been derivitive of a supreme intelligence whom, most people, would accept as being the epitome of "Non-Duality" in and of "It-Self", I contend that it has responsibility to the degree that an "All Knowing Consciousness" has chosen to "Know Thyself" through the tool that is the mind of man (C.G. Jung - "Collective Works ; Answer to Job").

In a very unique manner, the mental process responsible involves a psychic cleavage between "knowledge" and "communication" (Amit Goswami Ph.D. - "Self Aware Universe ; chapter : Self Reference: How The One Becomes Many"). One might at first, believe that if they hold knowledge in their mind, then the only communication thereof is to another (whom also has a mind). This is not true in every case. In fact, communication about any given knowledge must also occur within one's own mind if one so chooses to objectify the content of that knowledge.

In the conscious effort to objectify "whatever", this human mental tool must be utilized in order to formulate the appropriate symbology that defines the object & at once communicates that symbology unto oneself. In that instant, "that which is" is cleaved - is *irrevocably seperated - from "that which is not".

(* "irrevocably" ~ as in the quantum wave form collapse of "self-reference")

This becomes the domain of God all over again (God within "my" self) - choosing to actively resonate between: "knowing of", and simply: "just knowing." (This is a Kurt Godel principal ~ a system can be consistent but incomplete, or it can be complete but inconsistent)

So long as one chooses to objectify, define, and compare - in the dismissal or absence of subjectively "being;" in the "IS-ness;" the "null & void;" of "identifing,"of "identifiers," of "identities", the cycle of dualism shall "rear its ugly head" all over again.

So it is my suggestion, that the god within each of us is merely choosing to identify with reality in a somewhat "tactile sense of mental imagery".
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  #4  
Old 29-09-2022, 05:24 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Viskey
I should...
.... mental imagery"[/b][/i].
Thanks for reply. So, are you saying that this nondual absolute being, has an intention that is unchanging and absolute and perfect from which all appearant change and cycles arise? Appearant dualities that are simply perfect. So in a sense, a human can never speak on behalf of this absolute? Since all that exists is always it. No matter how it may seem or even feel as a result of any relative perspective, that even those perspectives and feelings are also it, in the undefinability of its infinity?

Or would you say that this Absolute God has a dynamic evolving intelligence. That it is just forever the most absolute, that we can come to realise, but it is also a changing relativity ever evolving, as the prime duality that is so absolute in cycles that it is the nondual ever self transcending duality/nonduality interchangably, from which all other cycles arise.

Or neither? Or both? Or maybe something else?
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Old 29-09-2022, 06:01 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Indian philosophy ...
... Peace
Thanks, that is certainly the best introduction to the answer, if there even is one, or if it is even relevant to know the answer.

I always felt like if I have a desire to know something, that in and of itself, the desire must be, or somehow contain, the answer, in and of itself. But to understand why I want to know it. I want to find something that is beyond duality. Beyond expression, or change, or relativity. Beyond opposites. Maybe the Source of it. And yet saying "beyond"... is also not it, haha.

I just know that I dont know. And sometimes resting in the not knowing of it. I get glimpses of me transcending my own "self" and then time and space seem to cease to exist. Memory no longer applies, as even past and future seem to change. And then there is suddenly No More Identity. Identity exists, as a new identity, and therefor it is no longer a real self, just a changing thing.

And I think, it may feel like it moves me a step further away from identifying the absolute, but since all these things are realised to no longer be real, then atleast I have "so much more" that I no longer need to worry about, or consider, as possibilities of what nonduality might be. Yet, whatever is still there, seems to be experienced in cycles of change and non change.

The awareness certainly feels unchanging, if I focus upon it with great deliberate intention and focus or even nonfocus. And the strange thing is, that my personal self dissolves, yet the experience within my awareness changes aswell, it is experienced to be more stable and unchanging, sometimes more unwavering amidst any degree of frequency/change. And I feel like I am doing that with my awareness. Even the doing of the nondoing of it.
I can go all the way, through all cycles within cycles, to the cycle-less. And then realise that being in the cycle-less, also comes to an end, as new cycles within cycles arise, making it also a cycle, and no longer the cycle-less. Which was appearantly just a relative cycle-less-ness. Caused by my desire to transcend all cycles.

And I can always say, "oh, but I never left the cycle-less-ness, it just seemed that I left it, it is absolute. It is unleavableness, hehe."
Yet, to my ever changing unidentifiableness, I still always have the duality of how I feel energetically. Where not recognizing this absolute nonduality feels painful, and recognizing it feels like sublime happiness freedom and joy. And all my recognition of it, is forever temporary, to the degree of the suffering that caused me to focus on it, to realise it, and hold my self, ever so temporarily, yet consistently, in the realisation of its absoluteness. And so, even if my awareness is unrelative, it keeps expanding into all relativities.

It is so effortless to realise it, and all effort is always to release effort. And so effort is required to release effort. So paradoxical to explain, but very normal to me and my daily experience. Without duality there seems to be no way to recognize nonduality or experience it. Yet, without duality, all dualities keep on increasing in momentum and chaos, untill I am almost forced to harness it to realise nonduality again. To return back to the awareness. To find right action that is inspired from pure positive energy, unfiltered, unresisted. Sublime, perfect, succesful, free. To the degree that my suffering has inclined me to go there, be that, allow it, and allow myself to be it. Untill it also is revealed to stem from suffering and returns back to it. In evermore undefinable ways, new and unique and ever changing and unresistable. Unchangable in its ever changinness. Same in duality, but ever new in variety.

Your description of cycles within cycles is perfect to form the foundation for where the question comes from, and thus also what the question is.

What has been said on these forums and elsewhere about awareness, is as close I can come to the answer. It is good enough. And yet, it requires deliberation to realise this awareness as self and expand upon the awareness of the awareness. But it's definitely good enough for now. As other options dont seem fruitful.
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Old 29-09-2022, 07:19 PM
Lord_Viskey Lord_Viskey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
Thanks for reply. So, are you saying ... from which all other cycles arise.

Or neither? Or both? Or maybe something else?

Wow Ewwerrin. That was a mouthful.... no more than my own spewings though, I suppose.

I view this "intention that is unchanging" rather to be constantly in a state of change as a matter of fact - so long as my sentience exists in time and space to make these assumptions about it.

True, everything is "perfect" ... even if it appears to my sentience as "perfectly wrong" sometimes.

Any "relative perspective" involved with the witnessing of reality is also a subclass of the same infinity that all of us exist within, and that anyone has a right to attempt to define.

As far as "God's Dynamic Evolving Intelligence" goes, I would say the "intelligence" is expressed via the discontinuities of our human mind and its "intellectual symbologies". That process allows us to function in time and space (in the mannerisms of either "expression" or "experiencing" of it).

The "prime duality that is so absolute" is that distinction between my sentience and the sentience of a "higher order of intelligence".

The "nondual ever self transcending duality/non-duality" better describes our lowly human attempts "pretending" to be Icarus flying towards the sun, rather than any distinction that I could make on behalf of the "Infinite/Absolute" source of me.

Well anyway, that's how I see the mechanics of this "nature of contrasts" unfold.
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  #7  
Old 29-09-2022, 07:23 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
...The awareness certainly feels unchanging, if I focus upon it with great deliberate intention and focus or even nonfocus. And the strange thing is, that my personal self dissolves, yet the experience within my awareness changes as well, it is experienced to be more stable and unchanging, sometimes more unwavering amidst any degree of frequency/change.
Indeed, it is the stillness of awareness which allows us to recognise all the movement within awareness.

We cannot understand awareness with the mind. We can only rest in awareness and be awareness, resisting the temptation to try to step outside awareness so we can analyse it.

Because at the end of the day, that which we are seeking is the awareness which is gazing out of our eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
...It is so effortless to realise it, and all effort is always to release effort. And so effort is required to release effort. So paradoxical to explain, but very normal to me and my daily experience.
This is the paradox. We have to make efforts to finally reach the stage where we are willing to surrender all effort. And when we finally surrender we create a space, and in that space realisation can happen. But until we reach the point of giving in we continue to strive.

Peace
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Old 29-09-2022, 09:09 PM
movingalways movingalways is offline
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Quote:
Ewwerrin: Thanks for reply. So, are you saying that this nondual absolute being, has an intention that is unchanging and absolute and perfect from which all appearant change and cycles arise? Appearant dualities that are simply perfect. So in a sense, a human can never speak on behalf of this absolute? Since all that exists is always it. No matter how it may seem or even feel as a result of any relative perspective, that even those perspectives and feelings are also it, in the undefinability of its infinity?
From toddlerhood you have been conditioned to view yourself as a limited human being with a dual, relative perspective. In truth, this is not you. Instead you are awareness/absolute being. Don't take my word for it, look within your self and see if you can find a boundary or contrast for the mind to refer to or cling to.

Quote:
Or would you say that this Absolute God has a dynamic evolving intelligence. That it is just forever the most absolute, that we can come to realise, but it is also a changing relativity ever evolving, as the prime duality that is so absolute in cycles that it is the nondual ever self transcending duality/nonduality interchangably, from which all other cycles arise.
You are not separate from the Absolute, Aware God, is this not true? And every moment, infinitely, without ceasing, the Absolute, Aware God of You is causing the world of You, is this also not true? And because the Absolute, Aware God of You is infinitely, without ceasing, causing the world of You, You cannot stop your infinitely being-caused-world so You can 'see/figure out' the how and why-fors of You, is this not also true?

You go beyond reasoning yourself as a dual, relative entity (believing there is an objective answer gap between you and form) when you absolutely KNOW you are the unbound Causality of You. Do not hesitate, do not pass GO --- look within!!
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Old 03-10-2022, 11:18 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movingalways
From toddlerhood...
... look within!!
This is so deep. Yes to all.

When my God Awareness does indeed create, it often has a reason that may or may not translate into time and space.
"I am one and all, all one, alone. I have an eternal and infinite unbounded unlimitted and eternally everlasting&available capacity to relatively experience myself, as myself, into myself, from myself, through myself, through self resonance, through the gateway of relativitiy. If other than me exists, I must eternally reach, infinitely, neverendingly, into all infinite never ending relativities, of me, as me, in order to find another than me. Something other than existence. As existence. And all illusions are but self reflections of and as relativity, of me, as me, through me, for me, from me, to me, with me, etc... For the purpose of finding "other than me."

Now, I CHOOSE this, always... As God Awareness. Beyond time and space. To extend also back into time and space. However, the cycle of me choosing this, and not choosing this, also exists beyond time and space, as we know it. But after having experienced it so many times, I have realised that this cycle of me 1. choosing and 0. not choosing:
1. excitement, unbounded relative self extension, through self resonance.
and
0. Non excitement, being, aware of nothing, as being.
This cycle is hard to recognize, because it is not relative to time as we know it. And it is so absolute that it is based on a timeframe that is beyond all time and space of this universe.
And when I try to look what is beyond this cycle, what is causing it, I find such an immense relativity, where quadrillions of years in our time and space is like 1 nano second of that greater existence, of which that cycle of my God Awareness is a tiny extension of. Where its relativity is simply unrelative to our relativity. And my God Awareness is the unimaginably tiniest of the tiniest leading edge extension of that "universe" as merely an individual unit of consciousness.

Here in this our universe which is a relative extension of my God Awareness, I find that I am not the tiniest leading edge extension of this universe. There are things way smaller than me (this human that I am), endless things, like grass, mushrooms, flowers, insects, rabbits, sand grains, rain droplets, ice crystals, nano chips, atoms, etc.

But to think, where does that greater Source Universe come from, which extends also into my Source Consciousness... ? What is its intention and why is my Source Consciousness governed by a dimensionally nonrelative (to our time and space) time crystal, to
0. not unboundedly create/extend/selfresonate/expand into and as relativity. But be, as awareness of nothing.
1. create/extend/selfresonate/expand into and as relativity.

And I find that that universe is so immense that it is impossible for me to go there, not to mention I cannot stop this cycle of me choosing to create or to not create. Extending into time and space and being in nontime and nonspace in being, awareness of nothing. Because the cycle is like a duality clock that is a leading edge extension of such an ineffably IMMENSE GREATNESS OF A UNIVERSE, that it is simply rediculous to even try to go back there and ask it why my Source Consciousness is an extension of its time crystal which is an extension of it... Why?... Well... Hhhh.... It's impossible.

Because I have no acces to that universe. I only discovered it through the realisation of the cycle of my Source Consciousness. Which unto itself took decades. And then to recognize the extremely subtle thoughtforms of my Source Consciousness, of which one relative translation of one example mentioned all the way above in this reply, indicating the shifting of that nonrelative (to our time and space) duality clock to 1 (excitement). And meditating on that non relative (to our time and space) cycle of 1 and 0. and what caused it. And realising that it has to be an extension of something. But that thing of which it is an extension of, is of such IMMENSE frequency... It is absolutely laughable to think that my God Consciousness, which is but the tiniest, yet most leading edge, extension of all of that, can KNOW WHAT THAT IS. IMPOSSIBLE. All it can do, is be what it is. And what it will know and not know, it will know and not know, when or how it will. And if that is relevant to that greater universe? I have no idea. Does that greater universe have an intention? I have no idea.

I can just surrender and accept. Be and let be. Accept.
To think that I should go even further within myself, beyond my God Source Awareness Consciousness and its being/extensional-becoming... The things that are required for me to do that... This is not something that is humanly possible.

As long as I am a human being, there will simply always be atleast some confusion about this... Not to mention, many beings who have communicated from those Greater Expanded Consciousness', that even tho it is known from those "places" or "non-places" (depending on what your perspective is), that from that "place/nonplace" it is also known how unimportant it is. And that makes me wonder... Then why do I have such a profound curiosity and intention and desire to know? What is the beginning... What is that which all things come from? That even the idea of going back, I am still going forward to what is back. That even going inward, the expansion of my realisation of what is inward is simultaneously going outward. Nonduality is impossible to realise or define as a human being. Or atleast, as long as my human being is still alife. Maybe. I don't know. I simply have no way of knowing.

I simply know that I don't know. Will I ever know it? See it next, on eye witness news... Reporting to you from eye witness news headquarters. Good day/night.
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Last edited by Ewwerrin : 04-10-2022 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 04-10-2022, 12:47 AM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Indeed, it is ...
... Peace
Thank you for sharing that, I enjoyed reading it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Viskey
Wow....
.... "nature of contrasts" unfold.

Thank you for sharing that. I enjoyed reading it.

By the way, nice avatar. Sometimes I look at a star and I see its light, very subtly and dynamically, fractalise into colors, reminds me of your avatar. And I was reading your reply and that of Iamthat, outside at night. As I was thinking and looking at a star that was remaining at the tip of a leaf fractalised branch. And it got me thinking and wondering. "Can God change into not God?" The idea that God is capable of everything. And I was looking around. But can it be, not itself? Can God manifest into something that is physical and then dissapear? Sometimes I wonder if God is manifesting all of this. Or if my consciousness is manifesting all of this. Or if God is manifesting my consciousness manifesting all of this. Or if God is manifesting all of this and my consciousness as a small portion of its own awareness.

And also funny, if this is all a dream within a dream within a dream, and yet we are here to talk about it. but ofcourse, if physical reality is but a dream, it takes some living it first, before I can wake up to something that is even more real than this.... Woah! Imagine something more REAL than this *smack* physical Reality! That to a being, this physical reality is but an imagination, just like to this physical reality my perspective of it is just my imagination. And like my dream is but a dream, and this physical reality is more real. I wonder if there is something even more real than physical reality. That would be mind boggingly mind blowing.
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