It isn't ONE Self it is Self that is all there is ..

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

In essence that's what I've been saying all along. The Unchanging and the changing. The Unmanifest and the manifest. The Permanent and the impermanent. The Infinite and the finite. That which has inherent Existence and that which has borrowed existence, for a time.

Recognizing the inherent Existence of the Unmanifest illumining the manifest with apparent existence, while at the same time being able to empathize with the all the inherent frailties of the manifest.

Truth is synonymous with ultimate reality-the eternal and infinite right here and right now.


The eternal and infinite right here and right now. itself is brahman, God, the eternal tao, duality and non-duality, the Infinite and the finite and the permanent and the impermanent. The eternal and infinite right here and right now, brahman or ultimate reality is not hidden from us, people hide the eternal and infinite right here and right now, brahman or ultimate reality from themseves by escaping it with spiritual and religous concepts, dogma, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc etc

All spirituality and religions point to the eternal and infinite right here and right now, people in different religions and schools of spirituality, just intrepret the eternal and infinite right here and right now differently.

Edit: Zen is the direct experience of ultimate reality-the eternal and infinite right here and right now. The direct experience of ultimate reality- -the eternal and infinite right here and right now is truth. see my post # 662 below
https://zenstudies.org/teachings/what-is-zen/

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

It is not at all about who is right or wrong. The right or wrong mindset is not the correct mindset to have.

It is all about truth, and untruths, misinterpreted, misunderstood and unrealized truths that are in spiritual concepts, metaphors and analogies of the mind.

The truth is the only thing that is permanent and does not change. And is beyond, not subject to, manipulated and distorted by people's subjective conditioned (false) beliefs, feelings, wants, wishes etc etc.

It is all about the truth. Sure the truth can seem to be about right and wrong, if a person thinks that way. There is the truth, untruths, and half truths, and it depends on what a person desires. Does a person desire truth, untruths, half truths, or a mixture of all of the above?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I agree with you that we are subject to the effect of nature and nurture, but rather than it being a hindrance I think that its limitations offer another consciousness. Isn't it more of a matter of focus?


Personally I think that quote you've given is what it's all about, I've used the poetic term "Journey to Self" because this is how I see things. It's not about any 'external' Spirituality, knowledge or understandings but always the internal Journey to ourselves. Yes we do make our own worlds and that's becoming so very clear to me - not just in that we make them but how to influence the internal processes to create something more agreeable - and to harmonise with it rather than be a slave to the unconscious.

Focus and concentration of mind is important. The contemplative practices bring about clarity of mind and the ethical and moral practices bring about purity of mind. The greater degree of clarity and purity of mind one attains, the greater degree the knowledge practices become realized and beyond an intellectual knowing, the ultimate being full Self realization. Never cease polishing the mirror.

So we have the seeming paradox of the path beyond mind is through mind. Put another way there is no path but only a fool does not walk it.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Truth is synonymous with ultimate reality-the eternal and infinite right here and right now.


The eternal and infinite right here and right now. itself is brahman, God, the eternal tao, duality and non-duality, the Infinite and the finite and the permanent and the impermanent. The eternal and infinite right here and right now, brahman or ultimate reality is not hidden from us, people hide the eternal and infinite right here and right now, brahman or ultimate reality from themseves by escaping it with spiritual and religous concepts, dogma, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc etc

All spirituality and religions point to the eternal and infinite right here and right now, people in different religions and schools of spirituality, just intrepret the eternal and infinite right here and right now differently.

Edit: Zen is the direct experience of ultimate reality-the eternal and infinite right here and right now. The direct experience of ultimate reality- -the eternal and infinite right here and right now is truth. see my post # 662 below
https://zenstudies.org/teachings/what-is-zen/

One does not simply walk into Mordor.

Point being one does not simply come to realization. It's a process and religious concepts (and practices), dogmas, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc... are part and parcel of that process. These are all tools of spirituality and they are not inherently bad in and of themselves. It's about how one understands and uses them.

As I said above, the path beyond mind is through mind. There is no path but only a fool does not walk it. Another way to put it is simply imparting the knowledge "without a second" on a conditioned and unprepared mind is only going to result in a defensive reaction. It will be roundly and soundly rejected. All these spiritual doctrines and practices are designed to bring clarity and purity to mind, thereby making it more receptive to imparted knowledge, and the knowledge being ineffable it can only be expressed through myth, analogy, metaphor, etc...

If one attempts to enter Mordor one best be prepared.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

One does not simply walk into Mordor.

Point being one does not simply come to realization. It's a process and religious concepts (and practices), dogmas, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc... are part and parcel of that process. These are all tools of spirituality and they are not inherently bad in and of themselves. It's about how one understands and uses them.

As I said above, the path beyond mind is through mind. There is no path but only a fool does not walk it. Another way to put it is simply imparting the knowledge "without a second" on a conditioned and unprepared mind is only going to result in a defensive reaction. It will be roundly and soundly rejected. All these spiritual doctrines and practices are designed to bring clarity and purity to mind, thereby making it more receptive to imparted knowledge, and the knowledge being ineffable it can only be expressed through myth, analogy, metaphor, etc...

If one attempts to enter Mordor one best be prepared.

Yes, religious concepts and practices, dogmas, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc as they are now a days, are part and parcel of the process, but they do not need to be part of the process. Why hide behind, escape through and beat around the bush with most religious concepts and practices, dogmas, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc, when you are able to get to the point or talk directly about truth/brahman/God/the tao/the eternal right here and right now to prevent misunderstandings, or misinterpretations in the first place?

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

One does not simply walk into Mordor.

Point being one does not simply come to realization. It's a process and religious concepts (and practices), dogmas, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc... are part and parcel of that process. These are all tools of spirituality and they are not inherently bad in and of themselves. It's about how one understands and uses them.

As I said above, the path beyond mind is through mind. There is no path but only a fool does not walk it. Another way to put it is simply imparting the knowledge "without a second" on a conditioned and unprepared mind is only going to result in a defensive reaction. It will be roundly and soundly rejected. All these spiritual doctrines and practices are designed to bring clarity and purity to mind, thereby making it more receptive to imparted knowledge, and the knowledge being ineffable it can only be expressed through myth, analogy, metaphor, etc...

If one attempts to enter Mordor one best be prepared.

What does Mordor mean to you?

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

What does Mordor mean to you?

Is Mordor an evil place? Or is Sauron's greatest evil however is wanting to bring order and efficiency in to a creation that is chaotic, inefficient and full of friction. Am I Sauron for wanting to bring bring order and efficiency into the spiritual world?

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes, religious concepts and practices, dogmas, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc as they are now a days, are part and parcel of the process, but they do not need to be part of the process. Why hide behind, escape through and beat around the bush with most religious concepts and practices, dogmas, analogies, metaphors, myths, etc, when you are able to get to the point or talk directly about truth/brahman/God/the tao/the eternal right here and right now to prevent misunderstandings, or misinterpretations in the first place?

You came to your understanding through the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti, correct? If so and unless all the pages were blank I suggest his writings have most, if not all, of the elements of other traditions. It is a guide, a framework, to prepare you for your spiritual undertaking, and that's no different than any other tradition.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Is Mordor an evil place? Or is Sauron's greatest evil however is wanting to bring order and efficiency in to a creation that is chaotic, inefficient and full of friction. Am I Sauron for wanting to bring bring order and efficiency into the spiritual world?

The Mordor thingy is just a metaphor for the need to prepare for a difficult endeavor. As to bringing order and efficiency into the spiritual world, that to me seems a dangerous idea. It's the stuff of "My beliefs are correct and yours are incorrect" and we know where that leads. If all is God doesn't it follow all these different traditions are manifestations of the same truth conceived and expressed by the various peoples and of their times and circumstances? The multiplicity striving towards unity, each in their own way?

https://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.i...l_religion.htm

What then do I mean by the ideal of a universal religion? I do not mean any one universal philosophy, or any one universal mythology, or any one universal ritual held alike by all; for I know that this world must go on working, wheel within wheel, this intricate mass of machinery, most complex, most wonderful. What can we do then? We can make it run smoothly, we can lessen the friction, we can grease the wheels, as it were. How? By recognising the natural necessity of variation. Just as we have recognised unity by our very nature, so we must also recognise variation. We must learn that truth may be expressed in a hundred thousand ways, and that each of these ways is true as far as it goes. We must learn that the same thing can be viewed from a hundred different standpoints, and yet be the same thing. Take for instance the sun. Suppose a man standing on the earth looks at the sun when it rises in the morning; he sees a big ball. Suppose he starts on a journey towards the sun and takes a camera with him, taking photographs at every stage of his journey, until he reaches the sun. The photographs of each stage will be seen to be different from those of the other stages; in fact, when he gets back, he brings with him so many photographs of so many different suns, as it would appear; and yet we know that the same sun was photographed by the man at the different stages of his progress. Even so is it with the Lord. Through high philosophy or low, through the most exalted mythology or the grossest, through the most refined ritualism or arrant fetishism, every sect, every soul, every nation, every religion, consciously or unconsciously, is struggling upward, towards God; every vision of truth that man has, is a vision of Him and of none else. Suppose we all go with vessels in our hands to fetch water from a lake. One has a cup, another a jar, another a bucket, and so forth, and we all fill our vessels. The water in each case naturally takes the form of the vessel carried by each of us. He who brought the cup has the water in the form of a cup; he who brought the jar — his water is in the shape of a jar, and so forth; but, in every case, water, and nothing but water, is in the vessel. So it is in the case of religion; our minds are like these vessels, and each one of us is trying to arrive at the realisation of God. God is like that water filling these different vessels, and in each vessel the vision of God comes in the form of the vessel. Yet He is One. He is God in every case. This is the only recognition of universality that we can get.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

You came to your understanding through the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti, correct? If so and unless all the pages were blank I suggest his writings have most, if not all, of the elements of other traditions. It is a guide, a framework, to prepare you for your spiritual undertaking, and that's no different than any other tradition.

No, my understanding, self realization and direct experience of ultimate reality-the eternal and infinite right here and right now did not just come through the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti. Jiddu Krishnamurti just pushed me in the right direction to experience ultimate reality-the eternal and infinite right here and right now directly for myself.

My understanding, self realization and direct experience of ultimate reality-truth/the eternal and infinite right here and right now came through Zen, Vedanta and taoism, and as I said before all religions and spirituality point to the same exact truth/the eternal and infinite right here and right now aka God. People's egos/minds are so busy/occupied with concepts, ideas, analogies, metaphors, dreams, illusions that these people can not and do not see and directly experience truth/ultimate reality/the eternal and infinite right here and right now or God, which is right in front of their face.


Concepts, ideas, analogies, metaphors, dreams, illusions etc etc are nothing but mind chatter, self talk and narrative that came from some other human.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

The Mordor thingy is just a metaphor for the need to prepare for a difficult endeavor. As to bringing order and efficiency into the spiritual world, that to me seems a dangerous idea. It's the stuff of "My beliefs are correct and yours are incorrect" and we know where that leads. If all is God doesn't it follow all these different traditions are manifestations of the same truth conceived and expressed by the various peoples and of their times and circumstances? The multiplicity striving towards unity, each in their own way?

https://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.i...l_religion.htm

What then do I mean by the ideal of a universal religion? I do not mean any one universal philosophy, or any one universal mythology, or any one universal ritual held alike by all; for I know that this world must go on working, wheel within wheel, this intricate mass of machinery, most complex, most wonderful. What can we do then? We can make it run smoothly, we can lessen the friction, we can grease the wheels, as it were. How? By recognising the natural necessity of variation. Just as we have recognised unity by our very nature, so we must also recognise variation. We must learn that truth may be expressed in a hundred thousand ways, and that each of these ways is true as far as it goes. We must learn that the same thing can be viewed from a hundred different standpoints, and yet be the same thing. Take for instance the sun. Suppose a man standing on the earth looks at the sun when it rises in the morning; he sees a big ball. Suppose he starts on a journey towards the sun and takes a camera with him, taking photographs at every stage of his journey, until he reaches the sun. The photographs of each stage will be seen to be different from those of the other stages; in fact, when he gets back, he brings with him so many photographs of so many different suns, as it would appear; and yet we know that the same sun was photographed by the man at the different stages of his progress. Even so is it with the Lord. Through high philosophy or low, through the most exalted mythology or the grossest, through the most refined ritualism or arrant fetishism, every sect, every soul, every nation, every religion, consciously or unconsciously, is struggling upward, towards God; every vision of truth that man has, is a vision of Him and of none else. Suppose we all go with vessels in our hands to fetch water from a lake. One has a cup, another a jar, another a bucket, and so forth, and we all fill our vessels. The water in each case naturally takes the form of the vessel carried by each of us. He who brought the cup has the water in the form of a cup; he who brought the jar — his water is in the shape of a jar, and so forth; but, in every case, water, and nothing but water, is in the vessel. So it is in the case of religion; our minds are like these vessels, and each one of us is trying to arrive at the realisation of God. God is like that water filling these different vessels, and in each vessel the vision of God comes in the form of the vessel. Yet He is One. He is God in every case. This is the only recognition of universality that we can get.

Mordor is Lord Of The Rings lore, Mordor is a place in The Lord Of The Rings and has nothing to do with being a difficult endeavor. You took Mordor way out of context/gave Mordor a whole new definition to fit your intent and purposes.This is the problem about metaphors, concepts, analogies and ect I have been talking about.

How many people twisted, misconstrued, misunderstood religous and spiritual metaphors, concepts, analogies and ect to fit their intents, purposes and agenda, like you twisted, misconstrued, misunderstood The Lord Of The Rings lore of Mordor to fit your intents, purposes and agenda with me?

As said before, it is not about a universal religion or spirituality, it is about truth. Truth is universal and applies to all. There is only truth/the eternal and infinite right here and right now-aka brahman/God. If you are not directly experiencing the truth/the eternal and infinite right here and right now, you are either mentally in the past (with spiritual/religous texts, scriptures, traditions, teachings, concepts, analogies, metaphors, myths, dogma, etc etc) or you are thinking about the/your future.

I am not saying spiritual/religous texts, scriptures, traditions, teachings, concepts, analogies, metaphors, myths etc are bad. I am saying being stuck in the past with narratives of the past, spiritual/religous texts, scriptures, traditions, teachings, concepts, analogies, metaphors, myths is bad.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

You came to your understanding through the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti, correct? If so and unless all the pages were blank I suggest his writings have most, if not all, of the elements of other traditions. It is a guide, a framework, to prepare you for your spiritual undertaking, and that's no different than any other tradition.



The Mordor thingy is just a metaphor for the need to prepare for a difficult endeavor. As to bringing order and efficiency into the spiritual world, that to me seems a dangerous idea. It's the stuff of "My beliefs are correct and yours are incorrect" and we know where that leads. If all is God doesn't it follow all these different traditions are manifestations of the same truth conceived and expressed by the various peoples and of their times and circumstances? The multiplicity striving towards unity, each in their own way?

https://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.i...l_religion.htm

What then do I mean by the ideal of a universal religion? I do not mean any one universal philosophy, or any one universal mythology, or any one universal ritual held alike by all; for I know that this world must go on working, wheel within wheel, this intricate mass of machinery, most complex, most wonderful. What can we do then? We can make it run smoothly, we can lessen the friction, we can grease the wheels, as it were. How? By recognising the natural necessity of variation. Just as we have recognised unity by our very nature, so we must also recognise variation. We must learn that truth may be expressed in a hundred thousand ways, and that each of these ways is true as far as it goes. We must learn that the same thing can be viewed from a hundred different standpoints, and yet be the same thing. Take for instance the sun. Suppose a man standing on the earth looks at the sun when it rises in the morning; he sees a big ball. Suppose he starts on a journey towards the sun and takes a camera with him, taking photographs at every stage of his journey, until he reaches the sun. The photographs of each stage will be seen to be different from those of the other stages; in fact, when he gets back, he brings with him so many photographs of so many different suns, as it would appear; and yet we know that the same sun was photographed by the man at the different stages of his progress. Even so is it with the Lord. Through high philosophy or low, through the most exalted mythology or the grossest, through the most refined ritualism or arrant fetishism, every sect, every soul, every nation, every religion, consciously or unconsciously, is struggling upward, towards God; every vision of truth that man has, is a vision of Him and of none else. Suppose we all go with vessels in our hands to fetch water from a lake. One has a cup, another a jar, another a bucket, and so forth, and we all fill our vessels. The water in each case naturally takes the form of the vessel carried by each of us. He who brought the cup has the water in the form of a cup; he who brought the jar — his water is in the shape of a jar, and so forth; but, in every case, water, and nothing but water, is in the vessel. So it is in the case of religion; our minds are like these vessels, and each one of us is trying to arrive at the realisation of God. God is like that water filling these different vessels, and in each vessel the vision of God comes in the form of the vessel. Yet He is One. He is God in every case. This is the only recognition of universality that we can get.

How is taking a more direct, shorter and least resistant route or path to get to oneness/wholeness more dangerous? That is just preposterous!