I am so confused

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

The reason for the confusion is in the attempted limiting of the divine by reading scripture as a lawyer would.

When you read scripture, just accept everything as true.

There is clarity in this approach (faith supervening mind/mental reasoning) even if, or especially because it is not logical or rational.

~ J

Jyotir,

Thanks......I really resonate with your observation. In essence, it is speaking truth to power. The power of the material world is manifested in the use of reason, logic and rational thinking. The spiritual world transcends all of these devices. IMO the spiritual trumps the material.

Some of us come to the point of understanding your words by grace. I understand that not all are gifted in this way. It was true in my case. I was a doubter via my intellect and, perhaps, unconsciously worked harder to verify my doubts rather than accepting the possibility of a truth that could be arrived by a different path. I distinctly remember a specific incident of having a moment of genuine epiphany concerning a certain matter from the Bible. My response was a well remembered curse of myself where I exclaimed...."Damn it...this **** is all true !!"

Now it reminds me of the lyrics of Amazing Grace...."T'was grace that taught my heart to fear....and grace my fears relieved....how precious did that grace appear....the hour I first believed". From that point forward I accepted the Bible and scripture as truth and looked forward to the effort to understand the embedded truths. Parables and difficult sayings are the most fruitful passages to attempt to unravel. The rewards for these efforts result in continuing epiphanies.

Perhaps it is simply an exercise in attempting to prove positives rather than attempting to verify negatives. To each his own....:)

Originally Posted by hallow

It could have been prophesied buy some who understood that history repeats itself. Today I was reading about the Spanish flu. The similarities of that and what is going on now sent chills down my spine.

I watched a documentary about that comparison not too long ago. The pattern of denial by governments back then was shockingly similar to the one the authoritarian leaning countries are doing today. As I recall they didn't want anyone staying home from work because it may slow the economy and affect the war effort. It backfired as eventually nobody believed them when they said it was safe and started avoiding going in anyway. They lied to people to prop up the economy but it eventually backfired. Luckily for them the war ended in Nov of 1918.... hmmm....kinda spooky eh? 102 years later and here we go again.

[RabbiO]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

► First - the first five books were written in a style that would be improved on by others. Those books were probably written when the Jews were deported to Babylon.

►► Second - While in Babylon, the writing style was improved on as expressed in the Babylonian Talmud.

Would you run this by me one more time. I'm not quite understanding the connection you are making between the Torah and the Babylonian Talmud which was not begun until some 700 years after the Torah and not completed until just about 1,000 years after the Torah.

By the way, only the Gemara was compiled in Babylon, the Mishna was compiled in Israel.

[Jyotir]

Hi Molearner,

Always a pleasure!

There is simply a practical value in unconditional acceptance.
It provides (or allows) insight into the truth of anyone or any thing.

There is really no need to refute what is. (for instance: that the spiritual is the source of the material)

What one subsequently does, or needs to do with that insight is another issue, which may also be dealt with in similar fashion - but at least there is greater awareness from the outset.

When the mind is still, tranquil, devoid of agenda, open, receptive - that is when intuition has the greatest possibility of descending into the waking consciousness for the revelation of truth. Of course, this is still problematic in human beings because there is the likelihood of lesser and more concrete cognition interceding or intervening in this reception which clouds or diminishes the eventual outcome.

Intuition provides knowing by direct identification, which is facilitated by that acceptance. It is faster and more reliable than the cumbersome process of reasoning, proof, logic, etc. which always runs the risk of finding “truth”, based not only on (often) faulty premise, faulty evidence, and also faulty reasoning itself, thus greatly multiplying the possibility of error. Thus, a reasoned conclusion is a kind of partial blindness and stumbling; always suspect, provisional, temporary, and by its very nature is always susceptible to the process of constant revision by doubt and suspicion of result, which therefore becomes an incessant indeterminacy or argumentation, whether intrinsic or extrinsic to self (perhaps both?!) - which is the ironic (or not) very circular principle of mind itself: an ignorant processing of ignorant perception.


----------------------------
I recommend for anyone so interested, passages in Sri Aurobindo’s , “The Synthesis of Yoga” related to gnosis, in particular Chapter XXII Vijnana or Gnosis pg. 474 (there are other related chapters) which explains differences between reason and intuition, among other things; useful constructs and helpful explanations therein. (see the link in my signature for access)



~ J

[hallow]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I watched a documentary about that comparison not too long ago. The pattern of denial by governments back then was shockingly similar to the one the authoritarian leaning countries are doing today. As I recall they didn't want anyone staying home from work because it may slow the economy and affect the war effort. It backfired as eventually nobody believed them when they said it was safe and started avoiding going in anyway. They lied to people to prop up the economy but it eventually backfired. Luckily for them the war ended in Nov of 1918.... hmmm....kinda spooky eh? 102 years later and here we go again.

Yes, see what I mean. If you understand how history repeats itself and study it anyone can predict. Throughout history the wealthiest 1% doesn't want the average person knowing this because it would give the average person the upper hand. That's why throughout history people have and are still trying to destroy history itself. Speaking of the wealthiest 1%. There's a power we all have called "the secret" it's called that for a reason. That 1% don't want the average person knowing that either. It's a crazy world we live in. Check out the book or movie. "The Secret" the world is set up by the wealthiest people. The one thing wealthy and competitive people hate is more competition so they do whatever they can to destroy the competition.

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

The reason for the confusion is in the attempted limiting of the divine by reading scripture as a lawyer would.

When you read scripture, just accept everything as true.

There is clarity in this approach (faith supervening mind/mental reasoning) even if, or especially because it is not logical or rational.

~ J

Jyotir,

An additional observation. It brings to mind a quote from G.K. Chesterton....about gratitude...."When it comes to life the critical thing is whether you take things for granted or take them with gratitude"

This seems to speak to what you have espoused. It provides a very helpful focus in our attempts to pursue a meaningful and productive approach.