Invitation to question my view

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Well said!!!

Yes Miss H that's certainly true . Discussion , exchange & arguments with goodwill & without prejudice/malice/ego/jealousy is the soul of this forum and we can not/should not undermine it any cost

Thanks for re-iterating.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Non-duality is...
... of the Divine.
Peace

If the Self is it, then it has another than self. If the self is absolute and everything, then it has no other, and this it cannot be known or objectified. Awareness requires self and other. object and subject. Knowing is consciousness. Therefor the absolute cannot be known.
So there is still no hope left for me. I cannot see beyond myself. Or know beyond knowing. Or become aware beyond awareness. I also cannot end awareness. So what hope is there left for this one that desires to know the absolute and objectify it? It cannot be done.

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ Ewwerrin ~ you can consider going through this thread and see if it holds some value for you :

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...d.php?t=146062

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Awareness requires self and other. object and subject. Knowing is consciousness. Therefor the absolute cannot be known.

A metaphor a lot of spiritual teachers use is to think of yourself as a drop of water in the ocean, the absolute is the ocean. As a drop you are other than the whole ocean in a way. But you can know or experience the ocean. It depends on your vantage point. A drop at the bottom of the ocean may not be able to perceive the ocean from those depths. But a drop on the surface can in it's own way. The drop is also part and parcel of the ocean. The ocean is made up of all the drops.

I think we are both at the same time, separate from the absolute and totally it too. Like the drop of water in the ocean. It's not that we are it and not it, because we are it, but we are it as something like an energy atom it it's body. But each atom is it in all aspects and intimately connected to it. We are that which experiences and perceives and is aware but that which experiences and perceives and is aware may not be aware it is other than what it is experiencing, perceiving, or aware of. Delusion is identifying with the perception with no awareness where I end and perception begins. If I am a drop and the absolute the ocean, self awareness or knowing what I am not, brings me into perception of what I am, ocean.

If there was an oil spill and as a drop I put all of my attention on the oil, I no longer perceive the ocean or my true identity as a drop of ocean. I think I took this metaphor way too far but maybe it has some meaning still.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Nonduality cannot be experienced.

I think in true non-duality, duality and non-duality both cease to exist. The opposite of duality is not non-duality because both are ideas and I think what we are talking about is the absence of ideas.

[movingalways]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

So what hope is there left for this one that desires to know the absolute and objectify it? It cannot be done.

If you were able to know and objectify the Absolute, you would be experiencing a state of (absolute) duality...YIKES! Be grateful such a state is not possible.

If your hope has been to know the Absolute not by silence of thought but by way of thought it is no wonder you believe you are suffering. I said 'believe' you are suffering because fortunately once you accept fully that the Absolute cannot be known by thought, your suffering will end. It is no different for awareness. You can't know what it is so how can you know if it will end or not?

Maisy is right, both duality and nonduality are ideas which is why neither can be known. An idea cannot know another idea. Make a cup of tea, sit in a comfortable chair, breathe naturally, sip your tea and listen in silence. When thoughts arise wanting to define the experience, notice that they change nothing of the sounds and sights of which you are aware, they change only your reaction to them and that this reaction, like everything of which you are aware, is impermanent. If the thought of impermanence frightens you, this is natural, but with time, this fear passes. The key to wisdom (and believe it or not, happiness) is the truth of impermanence. Put another way, even if you could objectify the Absolute, the objects you would form, like the breaths you take, are impermanent. Can you see that, for what I imagine has been a long, dark time you have been getting your knickers in a knot over no-thing?

[Maisy]

Nice posts. In a nutshell, relax and be as happy as you can in your current situation and circumstances. Also, try to be a nice kind person and help others.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Maisy

A metaphor a...
...meaning still.

The absolute cannot be known. There is no object/subject there. No consciousness.

Therefor, all consciousness will always enter the cycle of enlightenment and suffering. They are made out of duality. And they cannot cease to exist. Because they cannot know the absolute to even make a dent in it.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by movingalways

If you were...
...a knot over no-thing?

I know that the absolute cannot be known. That actually is the very reason why duality is absolute for consciousness. So you can relax all you want, with your consciousness. But you will be equally creating a lack of relaxation. To the degree that you create relaxation. Consciousness cannot escape duality. It IS duality. Object subject.

The absolute cannot be known. But if it could, all of existence would instantly cease. Thereby ending all duality. And that will never happen. Its simply impossible.

I am pretty relaxed about it. But it wont take away the fact that we are eternal consciousness' of duality. And that if suffering has been experienced, it is not rude to reveal that it will continue to exist evermore. Not ever less. But FOREVER MORE AND MORE AND MORE. Irrevocably evermore. One simply cannot denie that. one does not even need to denie it. It is SO OBVIOUS. You will be a duality consciousness for all eternity, because you cannot know the absolute. Its as simple as 1+1=2.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

The absolute cannot be known. There is no object/subject there. No consciousness.

What is your definition or description of what the absolute is? I'll google it as I am really curious.

Ok here is the definition that came up. You may have a different one.

absolute - viewed or existing independently and not in relation to other things; not relative or comparative.

I think of the "absolute" as being another word for God or our source myself (as one use of that word that "absolute" - it's used in a lot of possible ways) The source of conscious awareness in other words. So for me, this dictionary definition does not work. I think the source or absolute is not existing independently without relation to us. I think we are it and it is us. We can experience it. I believe I have experienced it.

The one time I experienced it the most, I was deeply aware I was catching a glimpse of it, a mere sliver, I thought of it at the time like touching the smallest edge of an envelope. Not even touching, seeing it out of the corner of my peripheral vision or "being" as I was not using my eyes at all at the time. I was far away from my body. But my mind expanded in awareness in ways I can't describe. It was like a 3 year old catching a glimpse for a moment of the intelligence and awareness of Steven Hawkings. That doesn't even come close to describe it or what it was like. The "mind" of the source is so far beyond ours it can't be put into words. My mind touched a sliver of God's mind and it was like my awareness exploded into infinite space for a brief second. It was the most amazing sensation and experience.

But I don't have a lot of experiences. Hardly any really. I know what my path is, but is very difficult.