God did not quite say his name was I AM.

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You are confusing the writings of the Gospels with the creation of the bible. The Gospels. Here is some history on the topic.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-matt...maic-or-hebrew

Then you would know that Matthew was believed to have written two gospels, one in Aramaic and one in Greek?

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What is interesting is that there are no original greek copies of the gospels as are there are no original Hebrew copies.



Yes, there are a couple of copies one being coptic which would fit since the Disciples wrote the gospels in various languages to fit the audience in which the were writing it.

That is absolutely untrue about faith. It is about the journey and were to find the truth, or God.

You are purely referencing the Roman Churches view that it is only faith. The Eastern Orthodox Church which is just as old as the Roman church is all about Theosis.

Theosis, or deification, is a transformative process whose aim is likeness to or union with God, as taught by the Eastern Orthodox Church and Eastern Catholic Churches. As a process of transformation, theosis is brought about by the effects of catharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria ('illumination' with the 'vision' of God). According to Eastern Christian teaching, theosis is very much the purpose of human life. It is considered achievable only through a synergy (or cooperation) between human activity and God's uncreated energies (or operations).

If you look at the writings of the saints of Eastern Orthodoxy you see some beautiful stuff.

“Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified. When the lamp of the soul, that is the mind, has been kindled, then it knows that a divine fire has taken hold of it and inflamed it. How great a marvel! Man is united to God spiritually and physically, since the soul is not separated from the mind, neither the body from the soul… It is evident that just as the Father abides in His own Son (12) and the Son in His Father’s bosom (13) by nature, so those who have been born anew through the divine Spirit (14) and by His gift have become the brothers of Christ our God and sons of God and gods by adoption, by grace abide in God and God in them (15).”


St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism

“We become members of Christ - and Christ becomes our members,
Christ becomes my hand, Christ my miserable foot;
And I, unhappy one, am Christ’s hand, Christ’s foot!
…Living with God at the same time, we shall become gods,
…Made completely like Christ in our whole body”

St. Symeon.

It is a realization, a change in being. Did Jesus not say that faith alone or good deeds would not get one to heaven.

I'm not against Theosis but it is a state that is earned by Christians, it requires 'acquiring the Holy Spirit', and it requires submission to Jesus and God. Theosis is not a 'non-dual realization':

Countless saints throughout history have demonstrated the possibility of deification [Theosis] as a reality in their lives. They attained deification only after intense suffering. Their sufferings came through persecution and martyrdom, intense ascetic discipline and countless nightly prayer vigils wrestling with evil spirits to obtain victory in the spiritual life. Through suffering such blessed victory was won.

...St. Seraphim of Sarov, a Russian monk of the nineteenth century, went into the forest with his disciple, Motovilov, during a snowstorm. While praying, St. Seraphim became iridescent in appearance, to the point of emitting what was for Motovilov an almost blinding light. Accompanying this glow was a warmth in the midst of the Russian winter snow, along with a beautiful fragrance and unspeakable joy and peace. St. Seraphim attributed this blessed state to his having acquired the Holy Spirit, or deification.

http://ww1.antiochian.org/content/th...-divine-nature

BTW St Seraphim also showed other evidence of God's power working through him, he was both a miracle healer and clairvoyant, 'knowing what was in people's hearts' when they came to him with their troubles before they said anything. He was also devoted to Jesus, prayed for hours every day, and considered himself unworthy.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

We can realize Heaven, it is there for all of us. But it is much like asking directions. If the place you want to go is to the left but all the experts keep telling you it is to the right you will never find it if all you do is listen to them.



Non-Dual. There is nothing that is not you, that is separate from you, from the Father. When you realize that, you have realized heaven.



Of course, it is just clouded over by there wants, fears and desires, by the ego.





Would you accept Taoist immortals who have done the same? How about Buddha's that have done the same? All before Jesus.. Yet it is still very rare even in those traditions to do what Jesus did. Not all realized beings demonstrate the realization like Jesus.

Again you are disparaging the gnostics but you don't realize that there are entire christian traditions that also believe the journey or the truth is within.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

Then you would know that Matthew was believed to have written two gospels, one in Aramaic and one in Greek?

No he didn’t. If you had looked at the link it said it was written in Aramaic and copied to Latin. Both have been lost.

I'm not against Theosis but it is a state that is earned by Christians, it requires 'acquiring the Holy Spirit', and it requires submission to Jesus and God. Theosis is not a 'non-dual realization':

Would you say by grace much like Hindus talk about the grace of Siva?

Of course it is non dual, you are one with Jesus, one with the Father. Where is the duality in that? Jesus talked non duality all the time but people refuse to listen.

Here is Symeon again. Plainly non dual.

From St. Symeon The New Theologian (949-1022)

We awaken in Christ's body
as Christ awakens our bodies,
and my poor hand is Christ,
he enters my foot, and is infinitely me.

I move my hand, and wonderfully
my hand becomes Christ, becomes all of him
(for God is indivisibly
whole, seamless in his Godhood).

I move my foot, and at once
He appears like a flash of lightning.
Do my words seem blasphemous?—Then
open your heart to him.

And let yourself receive the one
who is opening to you so deeply.
For if we genuinely love Him,
we wake up inside Christ's body

we wake up inside Christ's body
where all our body, all over,
every most bidden part of it,
is realized in joy as him,
and he makes us, utterly, real,

and everything that is hurt,
everything seemed to us dark, harsh, shameful,
maimed, ugly, irreparably damaged,
is in him transformed

and all is recognized as whole, as lovely,
and radiant in his light
we awaken as the Beloved
in every last part of our body

From St. Symeon The New Theologian



“By what boundless mercy, my Savior, have you allowed me to become a member of

your body? Me, the unclean, the defiled, the prodigal. How is it that you have clothed

me in the brilliant garment, radiant with the splendor of immortality, that turns all my

members into light? Your body, immaculate and divine, is all radiant with the fire of your

divinity, with which it is ineffably joined and combined. This is the gift you have given

me, my God: that this mortal and shabby frame has become one with your immaculate

body and that my blood has mingled with your blood.” (8)



“I thank you that you have become one spirit with me, without confusion, without

mutation, without transformation, you the God of all; and that you have become

everything for me, inexpressible and perfectly gratuitous nourishment, which ever flows

to the lips of my soul and gushes out into the fountain of my heart, dazzling garment

which burns the demons, purification which bathes me with these imperishable and holy

tears, that your presence brings to those whom you visit. I give you thanks that for me

you have become unsetting light and non-declining sun…” (9)



8. Johannes Koder: Hymnes; Vol 156 (1-15), 1969; Vol 174 (16-40), 1971; Vol 196

(41-58), 1973

9. Saint Symeon the New Theologian And Orthodox Tradition, by Bishop Hilarion

Alfeyev, Oxford University Press 2000

Very beautiful stuff and possible to experience/realize.

BTW St Seraphim also showed other evidence of God's power working through him, he was both a miracle healer and clairvoyant, 'knowing what was in people's hearts' when they came to him with their troubles before they said anything. He was also devoted to Jesus, prayed for hours every day, and considered himself unworthy.

Gods power working through is the same thing as the light flowing through. The Dao flowing through. Moving beyond the ego self.

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

No he didn’t. If you had looked at the link it said it was written in Aramaic and copied to Latin. Both have been lost.

It is a long and complex story with many hypotheses and no conclusive evidence. Read this http://www.bible.ca/jw-YHWH-hebrew-matthew.htm in its entirety and then we can discuss the language Matthew was written in.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Would you say by grace much like Hindus talk about the grace of Siva?

Of course it is non dual, you are one with Jesus, one with the Father. Where is the duality in that? Jesus talked non duality all the time but people refuse to listen.

I am specifically trying to say that 'Theosis' or 'Deification' is not a realization, it is not a mental position and available to anyone simply because they believe they are one with God. Deification happens to a person via descent of the Holy Spirit, which in its turn descends via acknowledgement of Jesus.

It would be nice to say that the grace of Siva is equivalent to the grace of God, but I don't personally think these are equivalent. I believe Jesus gave us access to Light which was not accessible before him, and that God's grace via the light of Jesus is in a category of its own.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Here is Symeon again. Plainly non dual.

From St. Symeon The New Theologian (949-1022)

We awaken in Christ's body
as Christ awakens our bodies,
and my poor hand is Christ,
he enters my foot, and is infinitely me.

I move my hand, and wonderfully
my hand becomes Christ, becomes all of him
(for God is indivisibly
whole, seamless in his Godhood).

I move my foot, and at once
He appears like a flash of lightning.
Do my words seem blasphemous?—Then
open your heart to him.

And let yourself receive the one
who is opening to you so deeply.
For if we genuinely love Him,
we wake up inside Christ's body

we wake up inside Christ's body
where all our body, all over,
every most bidden part of it,
is realized in joy as him,
and he makes us, utterly, real,

and everything that is hurt,
everything seemed to us dark, harsh, shameful,
maimed, ugly, irreparably damaged,
is in him transformed

and all is recognized as whole, as lovely,
and radiant in his light
we awaken as the Beloved
in every last part of our body

From St. Symeon The New Theologian



“By what boundless mercy, my Savior, have you allowed me to become a member of

your body? Me, the unclean, the defiled, the prodigal. How is it that you have clothed

me in the brilliant garment, radiant with the splendor of immortality, that turns all my

members into light? Your body, immaculate and divine, is all radiant with the fire of your

divinity, with which it is ineffably joined and combined. This is the gift you have given

me, my God: that this mortal and shabby frame has become one with your immaculate

body and that my blood has mingled with your blood.” (8)



“I thank you that you have become one spirit with me, without confusion, without

mutation, without transformation, you the God of all; and that you have become

everything for me, inexpressible and perfectly gratuitous nourishment, which ever flows

to the lips of my soul and gushes out into the fountain of my heart, dazzling garment

which burns the demons, purification which bathes me with these imperishable and holy

tears, that your presence brings to those whom you visit. I give you thanks that for me

you have become unsetting light and non-declining sun…” (9)



8. Johannes Koder: Hymnes; Vol 156 (1-15), 1969; Vol 174 (16-40), 1971; Vol 196

(41-58), 1973

9. Saint Symeon the New Theologian And Orthodox Tradition, by Bishop Hilarion

Alfeyev, Oxford University Press 2000

Very beautiful stuff and possible to experience/realize.




Gods power working through is the same thing as the light flowing through. The Dao flowing through. Moving beyond the ego self.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

It is a long and complex story with many hypotheses and no conclusive evidence. Read this http://www.bible.ca/jw-YHWH-hebrew-matthew.htm in its entirety and then we can discuss the language Matthew was written in.



I am specifically trying to say that 'Theosis' or 'Deification' is not a realization, it is not a mental position and available to anyone simply because they believe they are one with God. Deification happens to a person via descent of the Holy Spirit, which in its turn descends via acknowledgement of Jesus.

It would be nice to say that the grace of Siva is equivalent to the grace of God, but I don't personally think these are equivalent. I believe Jesus gave us access to Light which was not accessible before him, and that God's grace via the light of Jesus is in a category of its own.

Did the quotes above sound like a mental position? That would be more like faith alone would it not. Theosis is a change in ones being, a becoming one with.

Romans 8:6-17

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Siva is the name of God. In Christianity it would be Jesus or Yahweh. Would you like me to list the types of grace by Siva or how a realized guru can remove sin?

The Holy Spirit descending is typical of the Christian or Mystical Christian view of where on will experience energy. In Yoga it is often felt in the first chakra instead of the crown. Buddhism is even more different since they focus so much on clarity of mind before starting any energy practices.


But to think of it that it must start from the crown as a descent would be incorrect.

Or as Jesus says...

John 7:38

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

I think it is also important to have an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is often referred to as the Mother and is described much like Shakti. She is the form, the energy, the motion of the Father. She is everything as well as the infinite potential for all things.

[django]

I don't believe the grace of Siva is equivalent to the grace of God through the Jesus channel/path, I firmly believe that Jesus was unique, and that he opened the door to God in a way that hadn't been done before.

I think the Jewish/Christian understanding of the Holy Spirit is particular, not equivalent to Hindu or Buddhist concepts of Spirit. To have the Holy Spirit upon us or within allows us to communicate directly with God. Jesus represents a middle-man in this communication with God, perhaps we can communicate with Jesus more easily and sooner than we can communicate directly with God. Jesus will in effect take us into God's presence if we ask Him for his light, and the Holy Spirit then works in us to improve our communication with God.

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

I don't believe the grace of Siva is equivalent to the grace of God through the Jesus channel/path, I firmly believe that Jesus was unique, and that he opened the door to God in a way that hadn't been done before.

I think the Jewish/Christian understanding of the Holy Spirit is particular, not equivalent to Hindu or Buddhist concepts of Spirit. To have the Holy Spirit upon us or within allows us to communicate directly with God. Jesus represents a middle-man in this communication with God, perhaps we can communicate with Jesus more easily and sooner than we can communicate directly with God. Jesus will in effect take us into God's presence if we ask Him for his light, and the Holy Spirit then works in us to improve our communication with God.

You don't need a " middle-man " to communicate with " God " unless your God is a Religious God.

[django]

Originally Posted by sky123

You don't need a " middle-man " to communicate with " God " unless your God is a Religious God.

If you were actually communicating directly with God, you would be fully clairvoyant and able to heal all physical ailments, just as St Seraphim did.

Imagining perfect communication with God with no evidence of any power flowing through you is just fanciful thinking.

Surrendering to Jesus as the "middle-man" is only required when you have found the dark emptiness within, and you are finally desperate enough for light in that dark empty place.

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

If you were actually communicating directly with God, you would be fully clairvoyant and able to heal all physical ailments, just as St Seraphim did.

Imagining perfect communication with God with no evidence of any power flowing through you is just fanciful thinking.

Surrendering to Jesus as the "middle-man" is only required when you have found the dark emptiness within, and you are finally desperate enough for light in that dark empty place.

You stick to your Fairy Tales and I with my Fanciful Thinking and we are both happy.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

I don't believe the grace of Siva is equivalent to the grace of God through the Jesus channel/path, I firmly believe that Jesus was unique, and that he opened the door to God in a way that hadn't been done before.

I think the Jewish/Christian understanding of the Holy Spirit is particular, not equivalent to Hindu or Buddhist concepts of Spirit. To have the Holy Spirit upon us or within allows us to communicate directly with God. Jesus represents a middle-man in this communication with God, perhaps we can communicate with Jesus more easily and sooner than we can communicate directly with God. Jesus will in effect take us into God's presence if we ask Him for his light, and the Holy Spirit then works in us to improve our communication with God.

I do agree that Jesus was different and to me he turned the Wheel much like the Buddha did.

The concept of Jesus as a middle man goes completely against what Jesus taught. Did Jesus not say that he was one with the Father? Where is the middle in that?

Also, do you know a lot of people who experience the light and are taken into God's presence?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Because this isn't a Christian section if you were looking for a Jewish example have you studied Jewish Kabbalah?

Kabbalah (also spelled Kabalah, Cabala, Qabala)—sometimes translated as “mysticism” or “occult knowledge—is a part of Jewish tradition that deals with the essence of God. Whether it entails a sacred text, an experience, or the way things work, Kabbalists believe that God moves in mysterious ways. However, Kabbalists also believe that true knowledge and understanding of that inner, mysterious process is obtainable, and through that knowledge, the greatest intimacy with God can be attained.

The Zohar, a collection of written, mystical commentaries on the Torah, is considered to be the underpinning of Kabbalah. Written in medieval Aramaic and medieval Hebrew, the Zohar is intended to guide Kabbalists in their spiritual journey, helping them attain the greater levels of connectedness with God that they desire.

Kabbalistic thought often is considered Jewish mysticism. Its practitioners tend to view the Creator and the Creation as a continuum, rather than as discrete entities, and they desire to experience intimacy with God. This desire is especially intense because of the powerful mystical sense of kinship that Kabbalists believe exists between God and humanity. Within the soul of every individual is a hidden part of God that is wait*ing to be revealed. Even mystics who refuse to describe such a fusion of God and man so boldly, still find the whole of Creation suffused in divinity, breaking down distinctions between God and the universe. Thus, the Kabbalist Moses Cordovero writes, “The essence of divin*ity is found in every single thing, nothing but It exists….It exists in each existent.”

In Gaudapada's commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad, he said pretty much what you just wrote about the Kabbalah regarding "to view the Creator and the Creation as a continuum, rather than as discrete entities". My sense is that this makes a lot of sense.