The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

[Joe Mc]

Anyway yous are all wrong ! lol According to Bhante Sangharaks hita, Samma Dhitti (Pali) and Samyak Dhrsti (Sanskrit) is more akin to 'Perfect' than 'Right'. The word Samma is better translated as 'Whole' or 'Thorough'. He also translates the word Dhitti or Dhrsti in Sanskrit to be closer to the word Vision as opposed to Understanding. If that be the case then it changes that narrow Right/Wrong intellectual professorship game that Westerners love to play ? I have the most knowledge here so sign me off with a nice 8 fold certificate so i can hang it on my wall lolol ..Don't worry that i dont have any spiritual 'Insight' just let me see how all this fits together. lol...My own personal view on that would be to go and sign up with any good University/College and do another PHD etc. in philosophy or any subject for that matter. Because how this all 'fits together' is not the same as practice/training or spiritual Insight. A beggar on the street could potentially have 'Spiritual Insight' but a Professor may not have any that's for sure.

I thought this thread might incline towards practice and practical application in the world and what the 8 fold might mean for the 'average man' but it's obvious from the outset that the same pattern of intellectual point scoring is present here. And as I say if i want to get involved in that I might want to sign up at a University or head down to the Houses of Parliament etc.

Surely the 8 fold path, although 'apparently' laid out in a linear fashion could be viewed holistically therefore more like a wheel ? Therefore the starting point is irrelevant because any spoke will take you into the hub as it were. But having said that it's quite obvious isn't it that each part is integral to the next ?

So if Bhante Sangharaks hita is to be believed this "Perfect Vision" or Perfect Understanding is a type of spiritual insight obviously hailing from the 4 noble truths but it also comes as a point of inspiration, a moment of clarity perhaps through Right Livelihood, Right thought were you become committed or convinced to look further in the Buddha's noble 8 fold path.

These moments of clarity are often what is termed mystical moments, and commit a person deeper to the spiritual path. Do they contain Samadhi. Yes they do. Samadhi for the masses. Anyways thanks ill look on with great interest especially when they start to hand out the Noble 8 fold path certificates lol should be fun.

************************************************** ************************************************** **********

************************************************** ***************************************

[pixiedust]

I haven't read this whole thread but I agree "right" is more "complete," "whole," "right effort."

Also, to each their own. I remember my teaching saying morality is important but to be stuck in morality is also to embrace rigidity.

To each their own. Practice lights the heart.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by pixiedust

I haven't read this whole thread but I agree "right" is more "complete," "whole," "right effort." To each their own. Practice lights the heart.

We generally find being too pedantic about semantics, or being too ambiguous, ends in nonsense, but meaning can be found in context, consistency and in nuance. Unfortunately 'right' means something slightly different depending on context. In my case, when I said I can 'prove it', that wasn;t try9ng to be right. It was just a bit of tongue in cheek. Not meant seriously.

I think with ethics people can get stuck in rule following and obedience which leads slight arrogant righteousness, but obedience isn't moral per-se. Like following the ten commandments because God said, or the precepts because Buddha said. I think we know that morals are more nuanced and pertain to subtler aspects of ourselves like intent, temptation, acrimony, or on the other hand, warm heartedness, sincerity, generosity etc. Personally I'm pretty cold-hearted and am not speaking from a high moral standpoint, but I'm truthful enough and pretty harmless, so I'm not speaking as a degenerate either... but I'm radically disobedient, so you can be pretty sure that the little moral fibre I do have is real.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by pixiedust

I haven't read this whole thread but I agree "right" is more "complete," "whole," "right effort."

Also, to each their own. I remember my teaching saying morality is important but to be stuck in morality is also to embrace rigidity.

To each their own. Practice lights the heart.

Yes Ivory Towerism is very much alive and well here in the forums and its usually made up of intellectual viewpoints and mechanisations. I'm interesting in the pragmatics of spirituality, were the rubber hits the road. This is mainly due to my involvement around addiction and recovery. I'd much rather hear about how someone used the Buddha's teachings however loosely to change rather than listen to some Pedantic argument about lists and cleverness. I haven't really found that approach to spirituality here in the forums to be honest. Well perhaps there have been a few periods were folks were trying to create a loving vibe rather than outscore each other

************************************************** ****
************************************************** *****

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky

Understanding the Four Noble Truths ends with understanding the Eightfold Path hopefully , the first step in the Eightfold Path is the Four Noble Truths, and the last of the Four Noble Truths is the Eightfold Path, so it's circular imo.....

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I used the word "spiraling" but your point about "circular" is quite appropriate as per my UNDERSTANDING.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

Sir, you raised a beautiful thread. Thank you.

I googled Wikipedia about "Noble Eightfold path" and it says that "purpose of this path is to end sufferings and attain Nirvana".

Is there no other purpose than "this ending samsara"??? Please let me know.

Thank you.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Viswa

Is there no other purpose than "this ending samsara"??? Please let me know.

That is the ultimate ' Goal ' but while we are all walking along the path it has multiple benefits to enhance our lives and through our actions we help others along. (Ripple effect)....

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 30 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Gem

I think you'll find that the consensus across Buddhist sects is sila is the foundation of practice.

With all due respect, I think NOT.

As I posted previously, I have personally discussed the Eightfold Path with Buddhist monks throughout the world. If I may ask, how many Buddhist sects have you investigated?

QUOTING MY PREVIOUS POST: "I have met and practiced with Buddhist monks in Burma/Mymmar, Thailand, Nepal, China (Hangzhou), Tibet (Lhasa), Hanoi (Vietnam), the mountains of Luang Prabang (Laos), Cambodia, Korea, Sarnath (India) where Buddha delivered his first sermon on the Four Noble Truths, and (of course) various locations in the United States (and probably even more places which I can't recall in this moment). My understanding of RIGHT UNDERSTANDING is consistent with virtually all of the Buddhist monks whom I have met." The keynote/foundation of Buddhism is this Right Understanding (of the Four Noble Truths, which include the Eightfold Path.

To elaborate further, I had this specific discussion on Right Understanding with the Buddhist monks at Sarnath, the city in India where Buddha delivered his first sermon on the Four Noble Truths at Deer Park.

I am fully aware that there are many Buddhist sects who think that they have "improved" on what the Buddha taught. They have even denigrated the original teachings of the Buddha with their classification of the Theravada tradition as "Hinayana" (the lesser vehicle ) and their own teaching as "Mahayana" (the greater vehicle ) .

You wrote that "when you undertake formal training you take sila vows prior to commencing meditation (retreat) and; sila is the bedrock of practice". Like Sky, I have been to many Buddhist sanghas and I have not seen the taking of "vows" at any of them. (Perhaps, however, I did not see any resonating value in those control groups and didn't stay long enough to explore further. Even Jesus reportedly said "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black" as per Matthew 5:34 but that didn't stop the Catholic Church from demanding vows from priests as they "improved" similarly on Jesus' teachings. )

However, in getting back to your original point about morality coming before Right Understanding, let's return to your statement (as expressed clearly by you in a previous thread on homosexuality) that you "gag" ( ) when you see two men kissing. That implied morality judgement is based on your UNDERSTANDING as it is clearly different from both my UNDERSTANDING and that of the Dalai Lama on that particular subject. It is your UNDERSTANDING that has led to your "morality" on that particular subject. If not, then please elaborate on what your "morality" position is based in that particular situation.

This is a great dialogue, and I really appreciate your comments even though we are not completely in agreement. You may wish to investigate Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras, as the first two limbs of Ashtanga Yoga (Eight-limbed yoga) is indeed morality. If we were discussing Pantanjali instead of Buddha, we would be more in agreement on the approach being taken. However, I love the way the Buddha has approached this and, at this point in my life, I could recommend either approach based on the disposition and temperament of the practitioner.

NOTE: I agree with you, as Sky has also said, that the Eightfold Path has a "circular" ("spiraling" in my words) feature but my understanding continues to be that RIGHT UNDERSTANDING is the foundation and that our current understanding of the Reality serves as the basis for our so-called "morality" which varies by cultures depending on the understanding in that culture.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

....My own personal view on that would be to go and sign up with any good University/College and do another PHD etc. in philosophy or any subject for that matter.
Because how this all 'fits together' is not the same as practice/training or spiritual Insight. ...

Yes Ivory Towerism is very much alive and well here in the forums and its usually made up of intellectual viewpoints and mechanisations.
I'd much rather hear about how someone used the Buddha's teachings however loosely to change rather than listen to some Pedantic argument about lists and cleverness.
I haven't really found that approach to spirituality here in the forums to be honest.

And I invite to go sign up for that course rather than complain about this thread and Forum.
Another alternative - start a thread and try to steer it away from intellectual viewpoints and Ivory Towerism...
It could start with, 'Practical applications of..."

Originally Posted by sky

That is the ultimate ' Goal ' but while we are all walking along the path it has multiple benefits to enhance our lives and through our actions we help others along. (Ripple effect)....

Benefits??? Nope...Still a distraction.

It's a coin tossed on the road to check how one is very eager to attain the ultimate goal or still have interest on "Time" or "flow" or "materials" or "limitations". It's a test. Whomever passed calls it distractions. Whomever fails and clings to it, says it as benefits. But me, pass or fail, doesn't matter anymore.

There is no one here to help others, as there is no 'other' either.

One seeks. Based on the form of seeking, it becomes/flows as people/things/mentor/Guru/God/devil/etc..
or
One seeks not. No interest in flow or timeless place then. Just watch the flow from start to end.

"I'm awake".