How do thoughts arise ... along with duality?

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 240 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Thought forms are just the law of attraction working, which includes the person believing magic and thought-forms are real and true.

Rather than focus on refining definitions of "occult" and "magic" or "real" and "unreal", let's focus instead on what I quoted above from your post.

One of my young super-intense dedicated meditation buddies, who had previously been in a fundamentalist Christian congregation (past tense ) before I met him and introduced him to meditation, recently wrote:

"I was just reflecting how pretty much everything I have set out to do/prayed for has pretty much come true. I must be careful for what i wish for!"

He was completely surprised that, experientially, it has become a reality for him that, as you stated, "thought forms are just the law of attraction working ...".

Could you elaborate further on your comment as this is very much in keeping with the focus on this thread ... how thoughts arise .. and the consequences of thoughts. If you would like a specific focus, may I suggest "healing", the "siddhis" (powers), any of the so called "miracles", and so on.

This subject continues to get more and more interesting as responses reveal the depth of understanding of participants here. This is FUN ... almost like the dharma battles of Zen practitioners.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Could you elaborate further on your comment as this is very much in keeping with the focus on this thread ... how thoughts arise .. and the consequences of thoughts.

The esoteric approach of Alice Bailey and others describes the process as follows:

1. A seed thought arises in the mental body, fuelled by the will of the mind.
2. This seed thought attracts elementals of the mental plane to produce a thought-form.
3. Focusing on this thought-form brings it into the emotional body.
4. This then attracts elementals of the emotional plane to add magnetic energy and vitality to the thought-form.
5. This vitalised thought-form then descends into the etheric body to be released onto the physical plane.
6. If the conditions and timing are right then the thought-form brings about results on the physical plane.

This is the nature of magic, the act of producing results on the physical plane according to our will. The process may be interrupted at any stage due to various factors such as insufficient will and focus, a lack of clarity, too much or too little emotional energy, an inability to release, or the physical conditions are not suitable.

As explanations go this seems as good as any.

Peace

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 242 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by iamthat

The esoteric approach of Alice Bailey and others describes the process as follows:

This is the nature of magic, the act of producing results on the physical plane according to our will.

If I recall correctly, Alice Bailey was associated with the Theosophical Society at some point and had "The Tibetan" (Master KH) as her guide. My teacher was similarly associated with the Theosophical Society and her "guru' was Master Morai who reportedly had a close connection with Master KH. I am very very familiar with the Theosophical teachings.

Although our choice of words may differ, those six steps (Post #242) are essentially accurate. A thought arises ("fueled by will" or otherwise). Mental associations follow ("elementals" are attracted in Alice Bailey's terminology). Emotions proceed from the underlying thought(s) and results manifest on the physical plane, as you duly noted. These are the basics, as discussed at length in previous posts here. Based on a variation of the Thought Observation Meditation Technique (as described in post#1), one can directly observe and validate this process for one's self.

Let's proceed further little-by-little with some interesting phenomena that might seem "magical" or "miraculous" to some. It has been observed that, with the multiple personality psychotic disorder, one personality can have a serious disease such as diabetes which vanishes completely with the emergence of a non-diabetic personality. This is somewhat uncontrolled but clearly dependent on thought. Yogis can change their form at will but this is a controlled process. This says a lot about the physical body. Yogis can also influence the environment and other things as well so ... when we talk about thoughts .... there are clearly different degrees of thoughts relevant to one's understanding of the Reality. Some yogis can walk through fire unharmed because they think in terms of vibrations and not fire as something that burns. While many might consider this to be a "miracle" or "magic", it is just a manifestation of subtle principles inherent in this manifestation. It is quite natural for one who understands the subtle principles and can really "Know Yourself".

There is even a level beyond thought where, in that non-duality state, ONE acts intuitively and "knows without thinking" what to do. There is no traditional thinking at this level and things "just happen" intuitively in accordance with the best interests of the all-inclusive ALL.

This thread is getting more and more interesting. I really appreciate your insightful participation.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

It has been observed that, with the multiple personality psychotic disorder, one personality can have a serious disease such as diabetes which vanishes completely with the emergence of a non-diabetic personality.

Indeed. The same applies to allergies in multiple personality disorder, now known as Dissociative Identity Disorder. One personality may have a severe allergy which disappears when another personality takes over. Which raises questions about the fixed nature of physical existence, as we have discussed elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Yogis can change their form at will but this is a controlled process. This says a lot about the physical body.

Again yes. The mechanics of how this ability develops are a mystery, usually involving pranayama or perhaps the use of mantras, and it may be a natural consequence of awakening the chakras. Few of us have the discipline or the knowledge to attain these states where we have absolute mastery over the physical body.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

There is even a level beyond thought where, in that non-duality state, ONE acts intuitively and "knows without thinking" what to do.

Poonjaji (Papaji) describes living in such a state for about six months after his first meeting with Ramana Maharshi. During this time he lived a normal life and went to work, but thinking was absent. And he says that living in this state was a far more effective way to function.

Indeed, an interesting discussion.

Peace

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 242 EXCERPT:

If I recall correctly, Alice Bailey was associated with the Theosophical Society at some point and had "The Tibetan" (Master KH) as her guide.

There is even a level beyond thought where, in that non-duality state, ONE acts intuitively and "knows without thinking" what to do. There is no traditional thinking at this level and things "just happen" intuitively in accordance with the best interests of the all-inclusive ALL.

Iamthat summed up the creation of thought-forms pretty well. It is not a miracle or magic, nor is it supernatural or paranormal, it is just the way the universe/NOW is and works.Thought-forms are created by more unnecessary thoughts,and therefore wastes and depletes one's (mental) energy.

I will not call the emotional and mental planes, planes. The emotional and mental are all aspects of the self, just like consciousness is an aspect of the self, the same self where thoughts come from. The self resides in the heart, not in the head, hence Ramana Maharshi's teachings of who am I?-self enquiry that is suppose to lead one to his/her heart, where the I AM/ self exists.

Jiddu Krishnamurti was also a part of the Theosophical Society, until he renounced and rejected them, and he dissolved the position and the organization (Order of the Star in the East) of the Theosophical Society's world teacher.

The all knowing brahman through the self/atman, which exists in and animates the heart, thus. includes the physical body acts or does intuitively and "knows and does without thinking", when the conditioned/programmed thinking and thoughts that create a false sense of self does not get in one's self, atman, and brahman's way.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

And so Brahman is no longer Brahman.

Opposites and separation are illusions and therefore are not Brahman to begin with. Neti neti- Negate and reject that which is not Brahman. Illusions are called illusion because they are not brahman. What people think is real and true can be personal/subjective illusions of thought(s), that is not brahman. Your saying that there is no truth and your posts about ahamnkara only applies to personal/subjective illusions of thought(s) that is not brahman. Time is an example of illusionary thought that is not brahman, and is the root cause and creator of thought/mental and emotional conditioning.

People whom say the physical are illusions or maya and is unreal, a dream etc miss the point comepletely, because the physical is brahman, he/she simply does not see the physical that way and to be blunt/not mean, are spreading false information, based on his/her false perceptions/awareness of the physical not being brahman.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Opposites and separation are illusions and therefore are not Brahman ..... the physical is brahman .....

Considering separation is a fact of physical reality how do you square that circle? Worse still is this also applies to thoughts as they are only thoughts because of separation, contrast and opposition and that applies to all thoughts, not just "undesirable" thoughts.

Getting back to thoughts...

From the individuated perspective I suppose one could say they arise from the causal body as that's from whence mind arises. It's the projector of subjective reality. Then we have Isvara projecting the objective reality of the Universe from Its causal body... Is Its subtle body a Cosmic mind of sorts which is the ultimate source of all individuated minds?

Anyway that's one spiritual model and of course there are many, many others as well as scientific models. Which one is right? Does it really matter? Perhaps the answer is thoughts only matter until they don't.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 244 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by iamthat

Poonjaji (Papaji) describes living in such a state for about six months after his first meeting with Ramana Maharshi. During this time he lived a normal life and went to work, but thinking was absent. And he says that living in this state was a far more effective way to function.

Your above closing statement has brought this dialogue to an excellent culminating point. That is exactly where I hoped this thread would ultimately go when I wrote:

There is even a level beyond thought where, in that non-duality state, ONE acts intuitively and "knows without thinking" what to do. There is no traditional thinking at this level and things "just happen" intuitively in accordance with the best interests of the all-inclusive ALL.

By introducing the subject of "how do thoughts arise", it can (not always) lead to that which lies beyond thoughts. I agree completely with Papaji's comments about how "he lived a normal life and went to work, but thinking was absent. And he says that living in this state was a far more effective way to function". That is exactly how I now live more and more continuously. Experiences with this state trigger faith , which builds into confidence which leads to trust and eventually complete and total surrender to "That" indescribable aspect of the Reality that lies beyond thoughts.

As for how some of the yogis perform their seemingly "miraculous" feats, I have had discussions with such yogis on how this is possible but it never really commanded my attention. It has been my experience that, when in this state, one can call upon whatever is needed to accomplish whatever is necessary in the best interests of all when one is inspired to do so.This is indeed an interesting investigative process.

NOTE: You are absolutely correct that the Multiple Personality Disorder has been renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder. Nonetheless, I still use the old MPD terminology when communicating with non-professionals who relate more to "personalities" than "identity".

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 245 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The all knowing brahman through the self/atman, which exists in and animates the heart, thus. includes the physical body acts or does intuitively and "knows and does without thinking", when the conditioned/programmed thinking and thoughts that create a false sense of self does not get in one's self, atman, and brahman's way.

That is precisely the point that is being made and reinforced here. While the terminology may be different, you have expressed that point quite well.

Regarding my use of the word "planes", keep in mind that Ramana himself used that word as when he said that "the reincarnating ego is of the lower planes". There is a point at which words become inadequate and, when possible, that is the point at which sages communicate in complete and utter silence.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Considering separation is a fact of physical reality how do you square that circle? Worse still is this also applies to thoughts as they are only thoughts because of separation, contrast and opposition and that applies to all thoughts, not just "undesirable" thoughts.

Separation is not a fact of physical reality. Separating physical reality from Brahman by thought and vice versa, creates an illusion. You can't say Brahman is all and all is brahman, on one hand, then say separation is a fact of physical reality, on the other hand. Brahman is all including physical reality, Physical reality is a part of the whole.

It is not about good/bad or positive negative thoughts, and about thoughts in general, since one can be conditioned by good, bad or positive and negative thoughts. This is what many people do not realize. Conditional Love is an example of a good or positive conditioned thought.