How do thoughts arise ... along with duality?

[Still_Waters]

I had an interesting discussion yesterday on "How do thoughts arise" and how does the One get entangled in them and duality. It seems like an appropriate discussion topic for this non-duality forum.

While I can think of a number of starting points for this discussion, I am inclined to start with a fairly standard Thought-Observation Meditation Technique. It would seem logical that, in order to understand the thought process, one should observe it as best as possible. (Simultaneously, I am taking an online course on "The Brain" in which cognition will be the specific topic in a few weeks.)

What is the thought observation meditation technique? Simply stated, the variation taught at our ashram consists of four steps:

1. Thought Observation: Silently observe the thoughts with full attention. Imagine that you are observing these thoughts as a witness and go on studying the mental modifications.

2. Thought-Creation Method: Consciously bring the thought of any subject to your mind. After 5-7 seconds consciously remove the thought from the mind. Now bring another thought to the mind.

3. Thought-Expulsion Method: Observe the thoughts that come into the mind. Expel each thought as it comes. Give no opportunity for any thought to persist. You are not to bring any thought to the mind consciously but only to expel each thought.

4. Mental-Jerk Method: With one "jerk", not physical but mental, make the mind thought-free.

Many years ago, I met an actor from Sex and The City. He came over for a free meditation session and eventually brought other actors and actresses from the show with him. This was one of the techniques which attracted the most interest as they indicated it was very consistent with method acting whereby an actor/actress would clear their mind, create a thought (the character whose role they would be performing), and thus assume a new "persona" prior to the next filming session.

Let's start here and see where it leads relevant to the primary question that I would like to discuss on this thread: "How do thoughts arise?" and "How does the One get entangled in thoughts and duality?"

[iamthat]

Interesting. How do thoughts arise? Out of a mental response in our chitta (mind-stuff) to an internal or external impression. This produces associations or ripples of disturbance known as vritti. We get entangled by following these associations.

The recognition of an object and the immediate control of the responsive chitta is technically called nirodha (cessation).

Hence Patanjali's famous definition of Yoga in his second sutra “yoga-citta-vritti-nirodha” which can be translated as “Yoga is the cessation of the fluctuations of the mind.”

My approach to stopping this endless flow of thoughts is similar to option 3 above, the Thought-Expulsion method.

Becoming aware of thoughts rising out of nothing and dissolving back into nothing, I rest in that space of nothingness between thoughts. I then prevent the next thought from arising. As long as I stay present, that next thought does not arise.

As always, we can turn to Ramana Maharshi, who says:

Never allow thought to run on. If you do, it will be unending. ... The mind exists only by reason of thought. Stop thought and there is no mind.

We find a similar idea in Patanjali (Book 3, 9-10):

Study of the silent moments between rising and restraining subliminal impressions is the transformation of concentration towards restraint.

The restraint of rising impressions brings about an undisturbed flow of tranquility.

Alice Bailey comments in The Light of the Soul on Book 3 Sutra 10:

The point of balance between excitation of the mind and control can be achieved with greater frequency by constant repetition, until the habit of stabilising the mind is acquired.

This leads to a still mind, free from thoughts, under the control of the will of the Soul.

Peace

[God-Like]

One has to have the comparison of self, no self . Mind and no mind in order to understand that when there is self awareness there is the thought of that .

Thoughts arise because self is in and of the mind .

Sure there can be times of deep sleep or whatever word floats your boat, but there is self awareness and you can't prise apart awareness of I AM present and aware of that and the thought of that .

One doesn't have to entertain a thought after another thought to be mindful .

self awareness is the key .


x daz x

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 3 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by God-Like

... self, no self . Mind and no mind .....
Thoughts arise because self is in and of the mind .
self awareness is the key.

You are raising some very interesting points.

What is your understanding of "self, no self. Mind and no mind"?

You wrote that "Thoughts arise because self is in and of the mind". There are some who believe differently, as in the case of a previous poster who wrote "Stop thought and there is no mind". How can one resolve such differences?

I agree with you that self-awareness is indeed a very integral factor in this discovery process.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

What is your understanding of "self, no self. Mind and no mind"?
.

As we touched upon beyond the silence, that in my eyes is beyond the mind and beyond the self . This is the only instance it refers too .

You can't have thoughts arise if there is no thinker, no experiencer, no observer etc .

How can a thought arise, it can't . There has to be a central location in self awareness for a thought to arise or land so to speak . There has to be a point of origin .

When one eventually returns within self awareness after transcending the mindful self, then one regains a self presence, a sense of oneself .. Thoughts automatically return in reflection of this, in accordance of this .



x daz x

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 11 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by God-Like

As we touched upon beyond the silence, that in my eyes is beyond the mind and beyond the self .

You can't have thoughts arise if there is no thinker, no experiencer, no observer etc .

One eventually does go beyond the primal "I AM" to the Silence ... but Silence does not seem to be the Ultimate as one can quiet mental activity and still have no awareness whatsoever.

Using traditional terminology (for lack of better words), there is a point at which one "surrenders" to the "expanded consciousness" and knows WITHOUT THINKING intuitively how best to proceed in the best interests of all. Initially, one may simply have FAITH that this is the optimal way for one's Self but, once one recognizes that as an unerring guide which is far more reliable than the limited self-created gestalt commonly called the ego, the faith transforms into CONFIDENCE which progresses to TRUST which inevitably leads to SURRENDER. That has been my experience, and it would be interesting to hear anything that you can share regarding this. Everyone is different and everyone seems to approach the proverbial mountain top in different ways.

This seems to be consistent with your statement that: "You can't have thoughts arise if there is no thinker, no experiencer, no observer etc ."

NOTE: I should add that my teacher served as a catalyst in this progression as I might not have not directly proceeded in this manner without her challenges to explore this.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 2 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by iamthat

How do thoughts arise? Out of a mental response in our chitta (mind-stuff) to an internal or external impression. This produces associations or ripples of disturbance known as vritti. We get entangled by following these associations.

Hence Patanjali's famous definition of Yoga in his second sutra “yoga-citta-vritti-nirodha” which can be translated as “Yoga is the cessation of the fluctuations of the mind.”

Mindful of administrative guidelines on the length of posts that we can quote, I limited my quote excerpt to the above though I could easily have quoted more because it is such an insightful post.

Your first line is particularly INSIGHTFUL as it covers virtually every imaginable thought that arises... a response to an internal or external impression. For the most part, the process with external triggers is fairly obvious while the internal triggering impressions become more intriguing as the unconscious becomes a more and more prominent factor when one probes the depths of consciousness. Of course, in non-duality, distinctions between "internal" and "external' can become somewhat blurred at times.

Your point on entanglement is also well taken. With the Thought Observation Meditation Technique, I had expanded on the Thought Creation Method to include watching the mental associations that arise from a primal thought. As one gets more and more absorbed in the growing tree/forest of associations, the potential for entanglement does indeed increase significantly depending on the degree of absorption.

In conscious sleep, I can watch the transition between the deep sleep state and the so-called waking state. Although I can carry that thought-free deep sleep state into the waking state upon arising in the morning, there is invariably an external impression (such as my cats signaling that it's time to get up and feed them) that triggers the arising of thoughts as the daily drama of life begins once again. Dream formation works the same way relative to the arising of an internal pressure with mental associations that create the dream. As you can see, I have studied this process in various ways and my understanding seems to be very consistent with your very concise, precise opening statement.

Now, regarding your widely accepted translation of Pantanjali's 2nd sutra .... particularly the word "nirodha" (cessation) .... I once thought exactly the same way. However, after lengthy discussions/sessions with my spiritual mentor, who was a recognized adept throughout India on Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras, I changed my position to "perfect control of the modifications (fluctuations) of the mind" instead of "cessation of the fluctuations of the mind". I cringed at the word "control" at first since it sounded labored and not effortless. However, the analogy of driving a car and being in "control" of the car was brought up to address my resistance to the word "control". With control, one can quiet the mind at will (cessation) and activate it at will. Hence, I now translate that passage as "perfect control of the modifications of the mind" in that context even though I was very resistant to that verbiage initially.

Your quote from Ramana ("The mind exists only by reason of thought. Stop thought and there is no mind.") is very consistent with what we are discussing. Ramana defined the mind as "a bundle of thoughts". Hence, when one stops thought as in the quote you presented, "there is no mind".

Many of your statements caught my attention but I will only quote one more at this time: "Study of the silent moments between rising and restraining subliminal impressions is the transformation of concentration towards restraint." I will share an interesting story about my mother, who was very devoted to saying the Roman Catholic Rosary. At one point, she told me that the prayers slowed down to such an extent that there was a pause between the words .... a silence ... and the silence became so absorbing that she actually preferred to abide in that silence more than saying the words. In that silence, she discovered a great peace, which you expressed in another of your quotes (so I lied and the last quote was not the last quote of yours that I referenced ): "The restraint of rising impressions brings about an undisturbed flow of tranquility."

That peace/tranquility in the silence is where the "magick starts" (as BigJohn frequently says and with which I agree completely).

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

...while the internal triggering impressions become more intriguing as the unconscious becomes a more and more prominent factor when one probes the depths of consciousness.

I agree, although regarding terminology I usually prefer subconscious/superconscious to unconscious.

So the subconscious relates to the samskaras (subtle impressions and tendencies) brought over from past incarnations as well as those generated within this lifetime. These will produce thoughts and responses for reasons we may not consciously be aware of.

And superconscious relates to those thoughts and impressions which originate from the Higher Self or spiritual intuition.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Hence, I now translate that passage as "perfect control of the modifications of the mind" in that context even though I was very resistant to that verbiage initially.

Your explanation makes good sense. Sometimes we see the mind as the enemy to be conquered, but really it is a tool to be used wisely and appropriately.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

At one point, she told me that the prayers slowed down to such an extent that there was a pause between the words .... a silence ... and the silence became so absorbing that she actually preferred to abide in that silence more than saying the words.

I can relate to this from using mantras. Sometimes we can reach a stage where the mantra itself becomes another mental disturbance, and it is far more preferable to let go of the mantra and abide in the silence.

Which reminds me of something said by Lahiri Mahasaya. There can be a tendency in Kriya Yoga practice to seek ever more complicated Kriya techniques and do multiple repetitions, but Lahiri Mahasaya said "One should do what comes easily and without strain. Do not disturb tranquility by doing lots of kriyas."

In other words, once we have reached the silence just rest there, in Beingness (Parvastha).

Peace

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by iamthat

I agree, although regarding terminology I usually prefer subconscious/superconscious to unconscious.


And superconscious relates to those thoughts and impressions which originate from the Higher Self or spiritual intuition.



Sometimes we can reach a stage where the mantra itself becomes another mental disturbance, and it is far more preferable to let go of the mantra and abide in the silence.

Your word preferences of subconscious/superconscious (with your accompanying explanations) do indeed seem to be a better choice than the psychological "unconscious" terminology.

This brings to mind a fun story involving Nisargadatta who was once asked how he got into his "superconscious state". He repeatedly denied that he was in a superconscious state. Finally, when pressed for an explanation, he responded: "The state that I'm in is simply the NORMAL state; I don't know what state you've gotten yourself in."

Regarding your comment on mantras, I agree with you that, while mantras are indeed very helpful, there is a point at which "it is far more preferable to let go of the mantra and abide in the silence".

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

This brings to mind a fun story involving Nisargadatta who was once asked how he got into his "superconscious state". He repeatedly denied that he was in a superconscious state. Finally, when pressed for an explanation, he responded: "The state that I'm in is simply the NORMAL state; I don't know what state you've gotten yourself in."

Ha!

Peace