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27-09-2021, 05:12 PM
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Master
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 4,447
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QUOTE 20 EXCERPT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanantic
I think the difference between the dreamless sleep state and the forth "state" (turiya?) is the the body/mind is asleep but the Self is awake.
One thing that isn't talked about when it comes being lucid in normal dreaming is the newfound freedom.
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In turiya, there is awareness of all three states (deep sleep, dream formation, and the so-called waking state) as well as the transitions between them. I was saying that it may be difficult to differentiate between the deep sleep state and a thought-free state since the two are very similar. Turiya is clearly different and transcendent, as per direct experience as well as the Mandukya Upanishad.
You do, however, raise a very interesting point about the "newfound freedom" discovered in lucid dreaming and conscious sleep. As the Tibetan yogi Milarepa discovered, all things were possible in a lucid dream .... and, to carry it a step further, all things suddenly become possible at the next level in the "Cosmic Dream" (the so-called waking state to many). This is an interesting subject to explore further, and I am glad that you brought it up.
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27-09-2021, 06:11 PM
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Knower
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
QUOTE 20 EXCERPT: In turiya, there is awareness of all three states (deep sleep, dream formation, and the so-called waking state) as well as the transitions between them. I was saying that it may be difficult to differentiate between the deep sleep state and a thought-free state since the two are very similar.
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The last "time" I was in that Timeless state, I was a musician, and my big fantasy was playing Oakland Coliseum. I actually could envision that happening! But, I was afraid of what I may become. Fame & Fortune sounded not so blissful if my character suffers in pursuit of it. I was out of body and timidly I got sucked back in. So, even though I had a moment of lucidity, I still saw my ego engaged. Interesting.
I've got a Youtube vid on the Mandukya Upanishad. Good time to watch it again. I also found a version online. I think as our perspective changes from the mortal character to the Soul, our will follows. From that higher view, the personal ego's will becomes more of a hindrance; using force to change situations rather than going with the flow. I keep reading that we are not "the doer". In fact, there's no doer!
As Buddha said, ‘The deed there is, but no doer thereof.’ Taoism may say, "Yet, all things get done". Maybe we truly have nothing to worry about!
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29-09-2021, 03:43 PM
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Master
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 4,447
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QUOTE 72 EXCERPT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanantic
I've got a Youtube vid on the Mandukya Upanishad. Good time to watch it again.
As Buddha said, ‘The deed there is, but no doer thereof.’ Taoism may say, "Yet, all things get done". Maybe we truly have nothing to worry about!
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The Hindu sage Shankara reportedly said that, if a person decided to read one and only one Upanishad, it should be the Mandukya Upanishad.
I love your Buddhist and Taoist quotes. "Maybe we truly have nothing to worry about". That is my sense too.
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29-09-2021, 07:58 PM
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Knower
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
QUOTE 72 EXCERPT: The Hindu sage Shankara reportedly said that, if a person decided to read one and only one Upanishad, it should be the Mandukya Upanishad.
I love your Buddhist and Taoist quotes. "Maybe we truly have nothing to worry about". That is my sense too.
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Too bad I'm limited to just 3 lines of a quote at a time. Cyberspace must be so expensive! Ha! It forces me to think for myself, but so many before me have said my thoughts so much wiser! :-P
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02-10-2021, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
It is my understanding that this is indeed the case though it might be difficult to differentiate between dreamless state and a thought-free state.
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Here's another way to look at it and I'll go back to meditation to illustrate.
1 - An exceptional sitting distraction-free (this includes thoughts) where there still must be some very subtle remnant of mind present because there's a definite memory of being in the sitting and experiencing the silent tranquility. Time still seems to be present.
2 - Beyond an exceptional sitting where even the most subtle aspect of mind drops out because there is no memory and time seemingly drops out. Timer goes off seemingly just after starting, no memory from inside that "space" yet "knowing" you were still aware.
It's the "knowing". It's always present. The same "knowing" of that "space" in meditation is the same "knowing" that allows me to know anything. It's my opinion what I experienced was the shining of that "knowing" being obvious, effortless and organic. It wasn't something I had to do. I was It.
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03-10-2021, 01:40 PM
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Master
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 4,447
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QUOTE 25 EXCERPT:
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Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
2 - Beyond an exceptional sitting where even the most subtle aspect of mind drops out because there is no memory and time seemingly drops out. Timer goes off seemingly just after starting, no memory from inside that "space" yet "knowing" you were still aware.
It's the "knowing". It's always present. .....that "knowing" being obvious, effortless and organic. It wasn't something I had to do. I was It.
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As usual, your posts are very articulate and insightful as we attempt to go past inadequate words and hence italicize words such as "knowing" because there are no words that adequately describe what we are discussing.
Regarding point #2, I recall years ago that, when completely absorbed in sitting meditation, I would sit for 8-9 hours with no awareness of anything around me. When I came out of such meditations, I initially thought that my clock was broken as I could not believe that I had been so absorbed for 8-9 hours though I could not say how long it had been other than to look at the clock. This happened again and again so I do know that I was in a "timeless" state for 8-9 hours during more and more meditations.
How different is that fully absorbed sitting state, as described above, from the deep sleep state of which one is aware in conscious sleep?
Your post resonates well.
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03-10-2021, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
How different is that fully absorbed sitting state, as described above, from the deep sleep state of which one is aware in conscious sleep?
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The only thing that comes to mind is when in conscious sleep during the deep sleep cycles some amount of waking lucidity is present. More than during normal deep sleep and less than during a lucid dream? It's hard for me to be certain as I've never had any flicker of memory whatsoever during deep sleep so I'm speculating, and since I do not practice conscious sleep and don't have contiguous lucidity when sleeping I'm left to explore the meditative state, fully absorbed or not, neatly sandwiched between waking mind states.
Swami Sarvapriyananda sometimes describes deep sleep as an experience of absence (of objects) and that includes absence of mind. To me that seems the explanation for time dropping out and having no memory, yet "knowing"one was aware, that awareness was contiguous even if mind wasn't. Otherwise it seems to me if awareness was to drop out like mind does in that gap of missing time then it would be akin to simply blinking one's eyes, with the perception there was no break in wakefulness.
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04-10-2021, 04:46 PM
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Master
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 4,447
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QUOTE 97 EXCERPT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
The only thing that comes to mind is when in conscious sleep during the deep sleep cycles some amount of waking lucidity is present. More than during normal deep sleep and less than during a lucid dream?
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It's interesting that you should bring up that point since I recently attended a free webinar by Robert Waggoner on IONS (Institute of Noetic Science) on lucid dreaming (not conscious sleep). He showed brain scans of lucid dreamers in the waking state, the deep sleep state, and the lucid dreaming state. There are very obvious differences. Since he hasn't done conscious sleep, there was no information on that but my sense is that the conscious sleep state brain scans would be as you suggested.
Here's a link to Robert Waggoner's lucid dreaming site though I really haven't perused it and don't know how much interest in might hold for you.
https://www.lucidadvice.com/
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04-10-2021, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
Since he hasn't done conscious sleep, there was no information on that but my sense is that the conscious sleep state brain scans would be as you suggested.
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New Swami Sarvapriyananda video published yesterday on deep sleep vs. Samadhi. https://youtu.be/vglWbSIqmj8?t=5569
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05-10-2021, 12:05 AM
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Knower
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 133
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[quote=Still_Waters]QUOTE 20 EXCERPT:
"In turiya, there is awareness of all three states (deep sleep, dream formation, and the so-called waking state) as well as the transitions between them."
I noticed in the Sarvapriyananda video he says, "Turiya is the only reality that appears as three states, waking, dreaming & deep sleep. Waking, dreaming, deep sleeps are states of mind, not states of consciousness."
I think we are so embedded in the mind; in the concept of having a personal form, we forget we're a part of the Ghost in the Machine, not a small finite chunk of it.
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