Zen Anybody

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Last year I noticed I had a habit of thinking about things in the past, dealing with things done to me or whatever, troubling type stuff, regrets and what not. Well was I "thinking" these thoughts willfully? Consciously choosing these thoughts and this activity? Probably not. But the thoughts would come a lot and so this activity would as well. Like going for a walk, next thing I know, I am going over stuff from the past again. Getting angry or wishing this or that was done differently or I did things differently. Really all of this was happening to me, not by me. Basically a state of submissiveness to this brain and it's habitual patterns and habits is why this was happening. Plus, a lack of awareness in myself. So those thoughts would come and I would feed them with my attention and energy and off into a bad experience I would go. A peaceful walk would become feeling negative emotions and energy from the past.

This rarely happens anymore. How or why? That's hard to explain. There was one walk where the same thing was happening but I had been thinking, or reading, or listening to some teacher about these subjects and so I was noticing like watching as an outsider the thing, instead of being smack down in the middle of it. So I noticed the same thought or subject from the past, and I realized what was happening. There is the thought, I let my mind get into it, it conjures up all these bad feelings or emotions, and all of this is optional. The thought is not really "here" on this walk in this space. It only exists in my mind and it comes and goes. I don't have to give it any reality or substance in this now moment. I can willfully choose what I am paying attention to in the now.

I am saying it all now in words, but in the moment it's about realizing, understanding, words may or not be there in this process, the recognizing or understanding something new or seeing something in a new way with a new understanding. So I learned dwelling in the past using thoughts in this way was not only optional, but also it could conjure up a bad experience in the now which was not good. After I basically dismissed the whole process before it got going and was happy, free, and light, it only happened again one time. My attention habitually went to a thought about the past, I immediately recognized it for what it was, and poof, it was gone.

It's almost like the brain doesn't bother putting up thoughts like this anymore as I no longer have an interest in them. If such a thought comes, it goes just as fast. I don't entertain it or give it energy.

Krishnamurti talked about this a lot, but thought stops on it's own. If we are keeping our attention on the now as it is free of the conceptual or thinking, not interested in thinking, the brain seems to stop offering up thoughts. The mind becomes very quiet and still. So maybe in way we are responsible. But then what was lacking was self understanding, awareness of other ways to relate to what was, etc. Who or what is responsible for ignorance something exists? No one and nothing I would say. Maybe a lack of experience?

Every creature learns at it's own pace. It just is. I had habits of giving thoughts energy as I knew of no benefit of not indulging in this activity. I later leaned more pleasure is to be had not doing such a thing, so i found a way to not experience such a thing anymore. Life is about that, learning and refining until we find peace and no conflict within or without. 5000 years ago all these philosophers also figured out thought is playing a big role in what I am experiencing or how things are perceived and so they observed themselves to figure out how it all related. Then out of that came Buddhism and Zen and various other philosophies and religions.

How do I relate to everything else that exists with connection and harmony and peace, without conflict when my mind separates, judges, interprets, creates me and that in opposition? The answer to some was.... hmmmm... how bout no mind? No opinions and beliefs and seeking and judging...which all start where? Thoughts! Or the attention being in thought, when we can put the attention anywhere we like.

I'd just add that understanding and thought are two different things and one can use thought, higher awareness can use thought, consciousness can use thought in peaceful non-conflict creating ways. Thought is never a problem or bad in some way. What we do with it can be. In itself, it serves us. It's a tool we have. Out of it we can create an ego or a Buddha.

That is an excellent post and it strongly suggests that you are talking from DIRECT EXPERIENCE and PRACTICE while too many others talk theory but don't (or can't yet) walk the talk.

There is one sentence in your post that seems to sum it all up: "I can willfully choose what I am paying attention to in the now."

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Yes I see what you mean. Its a big area alright, fleeting glimpses of bliss all the way through to rapture and levitation, through to many many other varied varities of bliss and ecstasy. The light falls in so many different ways, it falls through grace, or is sought after. I remember Ajahn Sumedho recounted a story were by he had been meditating in a remote cave for several months, and believed he had 'achieved' or arrived somewhere, he could finally see what it was all about only to descend the hill to a nearby village where he came upon some condensed milk ..which he said he duly began to gulp down...within no time the state of supreme and lasting bliss was gone !

I'm also reminded of that statement by Alan Watts, i think it was, who said if you cant meditate in a boiler room, then you cant meditate.

And also the saying, its not good enough to have a practice fit for heaven but you need a practice fit for hell.

But most definitely i hear what you say ..and there is beautiful silence...that passeth all understanding hahaha perhaps perhaps !!! ...

thanks for the opportunity

There were a few things in your post that really caught my attention but, here and now, I will just focus on one Alan Watts quote in particular.

"If you cant meditate in a boiler room, then you cant meditate."

Many years ago, in my formative years, I used to meditate alone in my room at my normal time(s) in the lotus position exactly as prescribed in meditation classes. On weekends, when I wasn't working, I would sometimes become so absorbed that 8-9 hours would pass before I would come out of the meditation.

Eventually, when I was working on my quick temper, there came a point when I realized that sitting meditation did not provide all the information that I needed to address the issue. I realized that I needed real-time information relative to the problematic issue and that it was important to pay attention closely in the moment when a potentially problematic situation was arising. One quickly learns to recognize the triggers. Thereafter, whenever a trigger was recognized, I would detach and observe not only my thoughts, emotions, and physical reactions to the situation but also everything else related to the situation at hand. That level of detachment provided some degree of objectivity in an otherwise emotionally engulfing situation and facilitated resolution of the situation as best as possible. (Incidentally, that level of detachment simultaneously precluded the "temper tantrum" from emerging as attention had been successfully diverted to witnessing mode.)

About that time, I read a quote attributed to Ramana Maharshi stating that sitting in meditation for prescribed time intervals at designated periods of time is for "the merest of spiritual novices". At first, I felt offended by that statement since I had been sitting for long periods at designated periods of time. However, I quickly realized that I had personally come to the same conclusions as my meditations had shifted from just sitting .... to meditating in the moment throughout the day as situations manifested. It became quite obvious to me that Ramana Maharshi was absolutely correct in this respect.

How does one define meditation? I have seen many definitions but the one that stands out the most for me personally is one that I stole from Nisargadatta Maharaj. "Meditation is the art of shifting attention to subtler and subtler levels of consciousness without losing a grip on those levels left behind." That shifting of attention can take place at any time in any situation as needed whether it be sitting alone in one's meditation room .... or, as Alan Watts indicated, in a "boiler room".

As an obvious corollary, this practice works whether one is in a idyllic situation or in a hellish situation which is consistent with another statement that you quoted: "It's not good enough to have a practice fit for heaven but you need a practice fit for hell."

I love your post !

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

There were a few things in your post that really caught my attention but, here and now, I will just focus on one Alan Watts quote in particular.

"If you cant meditate in a boiler room, then you cant meditate."

Many years ago, in my formative years, I used to meditate alone in my room at my normal time(s) in the lotus position exactly as prescribed in meditation classes. On weekends, when I wasn't working, I would sometimes become so absorbed that 8-9 hours would pass before I would come out of the meditation.

Eventually, when I was working on my quick temper, there came a point when I realized that sitting meditation did not provide all the information that I needed to address the issue. I realized that I needed real-time information relative to the problematic issue and that it was important to pay attention closely in the moment when a potentially problematic situation was arising. One quickly learns to recognize the triggers. Thereafter, whenever a trigger was recognized, I would detach and observe not only my thoughts, emotions, and physical reactions to the situation but also everything else related to the situation at hand. That level of detachment provided some degree of objectivity in an otherwise emotionally engulfing situation and facilitated resolution of the situation as best as possible. (Incidentally, that level of detachment simultaneously precluded the "temper tantrum" from emerging as attention had been successfully diverted to witnessing mode.)

About that time, I read a quote attributed to Ramana Maharshi stating that sitting in meditation for prescribed time intervals at designated periods of time is for "the merest of spiritual novices". At first, I felt offended by that statement since I had been sitting for long periods at designated periods of time. However, I quickly realized that I had personally come to the same conclusions as my meditations had shifted from just sitting .... to meditating in the moment throughout the day as situations manifested. It became quite obvious to me that Ramana Maharshi was absolutely correct in this respect.

How does one define meditation? I have seen many definitions but the one that stands out the most for me personally is one that I stole from Nisargadatta Maharaj. "Meditation is the art of shifting attention to subtler and subtler levels of consciousness without losing a grip on those levels left behind." That shifting of attention can take place at any time in any situation as needed whether it be sitting alone in one's meditation room .... or, as Alan Watts indicated, in a "boiler room".

As an obvious corollary, this practice works whether one is in a idyllic situation or in a hellish situation which is consistent with another statement that you quoted: "It's not good enough to have a practice fit for heaven but you need a practice fit for hell."

I love your post !

Thanks for your great post, very inspiring and provoking. I wouldn’t be able to do justice to the tantrum subject as its not a me thing, it’s what we call a you and me thing lol Like on the check out at the supermarket the other day, I was the only person, big glass screen, check out woman told me to put my stuff down and stand behind the line, I thought she said move your stuff. So I went to pick up my stuff, and she issued an instruction with a lot of force, hidden force you might say lol as she didn’t shout, so I complied then said, maybe you need a microphone behind that glass as I didn’t hear you lol…anyway a split second latter I realised what was happening she was stressed, she was an essential worker and just freaked out basically. So I said are you ok ? something I would never do in a million years, I mean replying to anger that quickly and I said you should try and meditate. She said she had tried it, I said perhaps repeat a mantra or a prayer. As I say it all happened in seconds, but I feared my initial microphone comment had landed a little and so the damage had been done. Coincidentally the same lady had been fairly abrupt with me around Christmas time, its quite a big supermarket with a lot of staff so I knew it wasn’t a coincidence this time round.

So the point i'm trying to make is probably what we could term the ivory tower syndrome. I'm enlightened, I don’t think anymore, so fuk all yous lol !!! And as I was entering the 5th dhyana the formless formless state and bliss was wavering from every power of my body, then the next door neighbour decided to cut his grass. That’s negative why should he do that, doesn’t he realise that there are people trying to reach dhyanic states around here? So what are you going to do with your no thought mind ..are you going to help others by living amongst them ( although trusting Thomas Merton who said you can live behind the walls of the monastery and be much more effective and affective in helping or having compassion for others ) but that is another story.

Spiritual lobotomy (think ive had a couple of those in my time)… for thought, or do we entertain other ways of thinking about thoughts at least for awhile. Such as thought is energy ..the tree across the street there from your house is energy so is it a thought or is it a tree. And if it is a thought whose thought is it lol are your thoughts trees ? Anyways when silence comes for yourself and for others etc. there is a substratum out there still made of thought etc. So it is great that we can grow I hope …so its not just finished …ive stopped thinking its all over…love is pouring out of me ..and the world is benefiting..but could be that simple for some.

As a layman I can always relate to Nisagardatta. Also Ramana who although lived a renounced life inside the Ashram, I always got the feeling that he wasn’t a monk in the sense we know it , East and West.

As Sky123 pointed out …if you want to test your enlightenment go and live with your parents for a week. Lol. I feel the little formal structure of mediation I do ..is like a pram lol, Sky123 will like this metaphor. I feel myself going back into the pram when I sit still hahaha…hey this needs another post…

Ps. When i say that there is a substratum of thought beyond your personal thought i mean it's something like a dream or a fever i suppose ..as i was reminded this morning that some years back i was listening to this track by a band called China Crisis. The songs in general i felt were charting some kind of awakening for me as i was coming out of a very dark and painful period of my life, splitting up with the partner, children, house etc. disaster lol Anyway i sought solace in their music and found it too. They wouldn't be considered a great band at all but that is another matter. So there was a track called Africa and White...which contained the the line ' Life is a fever of Israel ' ' our lives are just a fever ' ...i often sang the line wondering what it meant and also thinking yes life is a bit like that ..like a dream or a fever. Anyways this morning i thought about the Corona virus, and also about that line ...and thought Yes ..we are definitely living out that line right now ..for now..( and i hope and pray as we all do ..things will be ok ) ... sorry the digression.

[Phaelyn]

Best to not post unless I am in the state I want to write about. None of this made sense to me reading it hours later.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Thanks for your great post, very inspiring and provoking. I wouldn’t be able to do justice to the tantrum subject as its not a me thing, it’s what we call a you and me thing lol Like on the check out at the supermarket the other day, I was the only person, big glass screen, check out woman told me to put my stuff down and stand behind the line, I thought she said move your stuff. So I went to pick up my stuff, and she issued an instruction with a lot of force, hidden force you might say lol as she didn’t shout, so I complied then said, maybe you need a microphone behind that glass as I didn’t hear you lol…anyway a split second latter I realised what was happening she was stressed, she was an essential worker and just freaked out basically. So I said are you ok ? something I would never do in a million years, I mean replying to anger that quickly and I said you should try and meditate. She said she had tried it, I said perhaps repeat a mantra or a prayer. As I say it all happened in seconds, but I feared my initial microphone comment had landed a little and so the damage had been done. Coincidentally the same lady had been fairly abrupt with me around Christmas time, its quite a big supermarket with a lot of staff so I knew it wasn’t a coincidence this time round.

So the point i'm trying to make is probably what we could term the ivory tower syndrome. I'm enlightened, I don’t think anymore, so fuk all yous lol !!! And as I was entering the 5th dhyana the formless formless state and bliss was wavering from every power of my body, then the next door neighbour decided to cut his grass. That’s negative why should he do that, doesn’t he realise that there are people trying to reach dhyanic states around here? So what are you going to do with your no thought mind ..are you going to help others by living amongst them ( although trusting Thomas Merton who said you can live behind the walls of the monastery and be much more effective and affective in helping or having compassion for others ) but that is another story.

Spiritual lobotomy (think ive had a couple of those in my time)… for thought, or do we entertain other ways of thinking about thoughts at least for awhile. Such as thought is energy ..the tree across the street there from your house is energy so is it a thought or is it a tree. And if it is a thought whose thought is it lol are your thoughts trees ? Anyways when silence comes for yourself and for others etc. there is a substratum out there still made of thought etc. So it is great that we can grow I hope …so its not just finished …ive stopped thinking its all over…love is pouring out of me ..and the world is benefiting..but could be that simple for some.

As a layman I can always relate to Nisagardatta. Also Ramana who although lived a renounced life inside the Ashram, I always got the feeling that he wasn’t a monk in the sense we know it , East and West.

As Sky123 pointed out …if you want to test your enlightenment go and live with your parents for a week. Lol. I feel the little formal structure of mediation I do ..is like a pram lol, Sky123 will like this metaphor. I feel myself going back into the pram when I sit still hahaha…hey this needs another post…

Ps. When i say that there is a substratum of thought beyond your personal thought i mean it's something like a dream or a fever i suppose ..as i was reminded this morning that some years back i was listening to this track by a band called China Crisis. The songs in general i felt were charting some kind of awakening for me as i was coming out of a very dark and painful period of my life, splitting up with the partner, children, house etc. disaster lol Anyway i sought solace in their music and found it too. They wouldn't be considered a great band at all but that is another matter. So there was a track called Africa and White...which contained the the line ' Life is a fever of Israel ' ' our lives are just a fever ' ...i often sang the line wondering what it meant and also thinking yes life is a bit like that ..like a dream or a fever. Anyways this morning i thought about the Corona virus, and also about that line ...and thought Yes ..we are definitely living out that line right now ..for now..( and i hope and pray as we all do ..things will be ok ) ... sorry the digression.

For your information, the quick temper is a thing of the far distant past but it did serve as an impetus to shift meditation techniques from merely sitting at prescribed times for designated periods of time ... to here-and-now real time. Now, in true Zen-like manner, one acknowledges any emotions that arise but is not driven by the emotion as attention now shifts immediately to how best to proceed from here.

There is a saying that "it's easy to be a 'holy man' on top of the mountain" but watch out when the 'holy man' engages in the valley below. I fully agree that one must operate in "two worlds" ---- the world of the "mountain top" and the world of the "valley below". When engaged in worldly situations that present difficulties, one discovers how to shift attention to the transcendent like an eagle soaring into the sky of consciousness and, having "seen" the Big Picture, return to the valley below to proceed as best as possible with this transcendental wisdom. (It's comparable to shifting attention between the dream-object and the dreamer in a lucid dream.)

Having introduced the subject of the dream, let's proceed with your two-pronged question: (1) "the tree across the street there from your house is energy so is it a thought or is it a tree. And if it is a thought whose thought is it lol are your thoughts trees ?" and(2) "When i say that there is a substratum of thought beyond your personal thought i mean it's something like a dream."

When I had my life-transforming near death experience many many years ago, I could see my body from afar, the doctors and nurses, my brother and sister down the hallway (remote viewing), and other details in the vast panorama which I was viewing from afar. In that respect, it was very similar to a lucid dream but on a completely different level. What is THAT to which one connects (or should I say "re-connects) when one goes beyond the corporeal form and even the little separatist egotistical bundle of thoughts commonly referred to as one's "mind"? Let's proceed with your question about the "tree". Whose thought is it ... really ?

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

For your information, the quick temper is a thing of the far distant past but it did serve as an impetus to shift meditation techniques from merely sitting at prescribed times for designated periods of time ... to here-and-now real time. Now, in true Zen-like manner, one acknowledges any emotions that arise but is not driven by the emotion as attention now shifts immediately to how best to proceed from here.

There is a saying that "it's easy to be a 'holy man' on top of the mountain" but watch out when the 'holy man' engages in the valley below. I fully agree that one must operate in "two worlds" ---- the world of the "mountain top" and the world of the "valley below". When engaged in worldly situations that present difficulties, one discovers how to shift attention to the transcendent like an eagle soaring into the sky of consciousness and, having "seen" the Big Picture, return to the valley below to proceed as best as possible with this transcendental wisdom. (It's comparable to shifting attention between the dream-object and the dreamer in a lucid dream.)

Having introduced the subject of the dream, let's proceed with your two-pronged question: (1) "the tree across the street there from your house is energy so is it a thought or is it a tree. And if it is a thought whose thought is it lol are your thoughts trees ?" and(2) "When i say that there is a substratum of thought beyond your personal thought i mean it's something like a dream."

When I had my life-transforming near death experience many many years ago, I could see my body from afar, the doctors and nurses, my brother and sister down the hallway (remote viewing), and other details in the vast panorama which I was viewing from afar. In that respect, it was very similar to a lucid dream but on a completely different level. What is THAT to which one connects (or should I say "re-connects) when one goes beyond the corporeal form and even the little separatist egotistical bundle of thoughts commonly referred to as one's "mind"? Let's proceed with your question about the "tree". Whose thought is it ... really ?

All good thanks for your reply, the tantrum thing i still struggle with tbh..but they say that you can have a trait in your personality that needs working on ..so enlightened beings can have enlightened aspects of themselves functioning for want of a better description and still be a little p***ed off with the world etc.etc. So I've heard a few people discussing this, pundits for the spiritual media side of things, interviewing gurus etc., so if it is the case that you can still have ' a bad temper' then there is hope for such reprobates as myself. lol

The NDE sounds far out for sure. wowww. I've had a strong OBE which could have been an NDE and experienced love like I've never experienced before, a moment in which i was loved unconditionally and totally and known the same. Known completely and loved completely those are what i came back with. It brought me a few times to look at the idea of 'perfection' and how us humans could even entertain such a notion if it didn't exist. How do we know there is perfection ? That type of thing.

I like the image of the valley and the mountain thanks for sharing. I suppose judging from what i have read and listening to interviews etc. it seems like you can have glimpses alright ..Kensho in Zen terms and still have to try to embody that experience back here in the valley Sounding like Gates or Jobs here, I wish

I'm still working on the tree koan We will see if there is any progress and I will let you know. Thanks for the correspondence, forgive my ignorance hope i haven't been too abrupt or arrogant or bad tempered probably all tree sorry three. Joe.

[Joe Mc]

“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”

Zen Master Dogen

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[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

No trace of enlightenment remains, ...

I was watching a popular guru awhile ago and he was taking questions from an audience, and he was generally talking about how thought is always tangled up in experience, then this person got up and asked him, "So what about spiritual experiences?" The guru looked dumbfounded and asked, "What experience has no thought tangled up in it? The person asking the question looked confused.

Really the "talked about" or remembered experience is not an experience at all. It is just imagination. Well it is an experience of the imagination. That kind of summarizes normal life. A stream of experiences conjured up by thought. Thought "tells us" what now is about, how we should feel about things in the now, the brain cooperates with this whole process offering up chemicals and emotions so we can "feel" this thought "reality" even more.

What is now when we are doubting the reality or truth or importance of the thoughts presented to us, when we are watching? Not thinking about thinking, but watching it all! No little piece of thought slips through so alert and awake is our concentration and awareness. Not letting one idea masquerade as "me" when I see clearly it is another thought!

What is now? If one has an answer you missed the boat though that too is a thought. Both the boat and something to be missed or not missed are thoughts.

Zen Master Linji, (the founder of the Rinzai sect). “If you meet a Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet a Ghost, kill the Ghost”…

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I was watching a popular guru awhile ago and he was taking questions from an audience, and he was generally talking about how thought is always tangled up in experience, then this person got up and asked him, "So what about spiritual experiences?" The guru looked dumbfounded and asked, "What experience has no thought tangled up in it? The person asking the question looked confused.

Really the "talked about" or remembered experience is not an experience at all. It is just imagination. Well it is an experience of the imagination. That kind of summarizes normal life. A stream of experiences conjured up by thought. Thought "tells us" what now is about, how we should feel about things in the now, the brain cooperates with this whole process offering up chemicals and emotions so we can "feel" this thought "reality" even more.

What is now when we are doubting the reality or truth or importance of the thoughts presented to us, when we are watching? Not thinking about thinking, but watching it all! No little piece of thought slips through so alert and awake is our concentration and awareness. Not letting one idea masquerade as "me" when I see clearly it is another thought!

What is now? If one has an answer you missed the boat though that too is a thought. Both the boat and something to be missed or not missed are thoughts.

Zen Master Linji, (the founder of the Rinzai sect). “If you meet a Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet a Ghost, kill the Ghost”…

It's a partial answer as far as I'm concerned, Eckharte Tolle and Sadh Guru etc will elucidate often the usefulness of thoughts, their necessity even to living a life here on earth. But their answers are perfunctory often and sometimes what they seek to describe is not always possible to convey using language and therefore thought itself.

Ramana Maharshi talked about using a torn to remove a torn. So using a concept, perhaps the concept of a mantra or meditation practice or a koan to remove erroneous beliefs. To discard the so called thorns after their usefulness has finished. With mantras you find they take on another dimension. They transcend, so they go from starting out as a group of words with connotations surrounding them and transcend if you like to something else, to wisdom and to God. They are keys and they doorways like all practices. Do you know anything about wisdom ? I mean do you know about wisdom in the realm we are discussing, thoughts ?Can wisdom if you believe there is such a thing be expressed using thoughts ?

The fact that thought has been instrumental in the development of this technology here which allows us to communicate is something good i feel. To try to banish thought is a sin in and of itself. It is an ignorance or a delusion. Just an opinion ive developed recently, not a reflection on your path Anyways interesting and dare I say thought provoking I'll end by including a quote from Shunryu Suzuki who advises about controlling people. But I also feel that his advice applies to thought just as equally so on Shunryu's Suzuki's intuitive enigmatic and agricultural metaphor I'll wish you well. Best regards Joe.


“Even though you try to put people under control, it is impossible. You cannot do it. The best way to control people is to encourage them to be mischievous. Then they will be in control in a wider sense. To give your sheep or cow a large spacious meadow is the way to control him. So it is with people: first let them do what they want, and watch them. This is the best policy. To ignore them is not good. That is the worst policy. The second worst is trying to control them. The best one is to watch them, just to watch them, without trying to control them "


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[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”

Zen Master Dogen

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If there is indeed a "trace of enlightenment" , one can be assured that it is not "enlightenment".

As Nisargadatta Maharaja has said, it is simply the perfectly normal state.