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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #11  
Old 28-08-2021, 05:16 PM
AbodhiSky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice
.......to come back to where we started and know it for the first time
I loved your quote better than the zen one. I can see the pointing to truth in it. The zen one is so ambiguous to me. So many levels to it. The zen quote reminds me of this quote by Krishnamurti:

"So where there is an observation in which there is division as the 'I' and the 'not I', or the observer and the observed, or as the thinker and the thought, or the experiencer and the experienced, in which there is a division, then there is conflict." Krishnamurti

Observation without those divisions would be direct perception. Oneness. No me and that. It's not a "mountain" anymore. It's a perception and experience of beauty and joy. Supreme peace.

and then your quote nailed it here as well to me....

"know it for the first time"

"What is the observer? Surely the observer is the past - the past, be it yesterday or a few seconds ago, or the past of many, many, many years, many years as a cultured, conditioned entity, living in a particular culture."
Krishnamurti

Before enlightenment, looking at the mountain with the mind as the mind. Experience as the conditioned person.

After enlightenment, nothing I type out here could represent it.
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  #12  
Old 28-08-2021, 05:50 PM
AbodhiSky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
Words are scrolling along the screen
Looking out the window I take a deep breath
Oh look an unskillful thought arises
The joys of forum life

That's a really good zen poem to me. Points to truths.

One time I was concentrating to go into and stay in a non-identified state. A non-thought based way to be. I can get there sometimes through will and attention and what not. But this time I managed to go into that state pretty deeply and so I was perceiving without thought, without "me" as a person. Just perceiving things as they are with no filter of self to see them through. Then besides that, perception through the senses, without any intrusion by thoughts or thinking, meant I was not looking for "meaning" through the mind or intellect or person anymore. Anyway, while in that state, I came to these forums and saw nothing at all. There was no meaning in any of the posts. Everything was just letters, symbols arranged in various ways. As you posted "Words are scrolling along the screen." I had no interest to create a meaning as words or ideas as there was "no one" there to be interested.

If one (conscious awareness, with the attributes of understanding and awareness) is living in the now, with nothing from the past, with "no one" from the past, what are words or sentences etc? Expression of reality now as it is or expressions of ideas based on the past? Say someone comes into the room and says, "dinner is ready" and so that sentence is pointing to a reality that can be directly perceived. I understand the words. I walk into the other room and there is dinner. But what if this person said, "this person cut me off in traffic today he was such a jerk" that is pointing to the past that no longer exists except in mind. So I would perceive or understand this person is carrying a not real image from the past in their mind. I would perceive they are painting a picture that is not real. It an experience they had they are still thinking about. They are focused on a memory. So "understanding" is different. What we perceive is different.

Buddha said that thing about leaving the raft behind. Really that also means leaving the "person" behind. Living in the now as that is the only reality. I liked how Krishnamurti touched on that subject here:

"when I say, 'I am a Hindu, Catholic, Protestant, Communist, Muslim' - it is the past, I have been conditioned in the culture in which I have been brought up. So the observer is the past. Right?" Krishnamurti

https://jkrishnamurti.org/content/lo...thout-division
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  #13  
Old 28-08-2021, 06:09 PM
The Cobbler's Apprentice The Cobbler's Apprentice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbodhiSky
I loved your quote better than the zen one.

For me both say the same thing.

Dogen sought to realise non-duality within duality. He saw each moment Now as being complete in itself yet there is movement towards Buddha.

All in keeping with the famous ten ox herding pictures where the last picture depicts the sage returning to the market place.

D.T.Suzuki speaks of the full realisation of suchness as becoming once again the Tom, D*cks or Harrys we have always been.

It is the trajectory not of up, up and away, but of return, where this world is not betrayed for some imagined "other".

I do not equate "unshakeable deliverance of mind" (which according to the Majjhima Nikaya is the Heartwood of the Dharma) with "supreme peace" as such.

Again, non-duality is not that "all is one" but that All is not two. A subtle difference.

What we observe need not necessarily be the past. It can be eternally new.
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  #14  
Old 28-08-2021, 06:19 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

the observer is the past
And the present.....
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  #15  
Old 28-08-2021, 06:21 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice
For me both say the same thing.
Me too
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  #16  
Old 28-08-2021, 06:27 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

Buddha said that thing about leaving the raft behind. Really that also means leaving the "person" behind.
Nope, there are plenty of Teachings regarding the ' Raft Parable ' which may help you....
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  #17  
Old 28-08-2021, 06:41 PM
Eelco
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The need to respond arises.
Thumbs touch the letters on a tiny screen
Now I'm overthinking things again
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  #18  
Old 28-08-2021, 07:10 PM
The Cobbler's Apprentice The Cobbler's Apprentice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Nope, there are plenty of Teachings regarding the ' Raft Parable ' which may help you....

One aspect is that the raft is for passing over, not for grasping . Often we can find ourselves trying to decide whether to cling on or to let go.

But the words suggest, at least to me, a middle way.

(A freudian slip there? I tapped out "muddle way"..... )
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  #19  
Old 28-08-2021, 07:25 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice
One aspect is that the raft is for passing over, not for grasping . Often we can find ourselves trying to decide whether to cling on or to let go.
But the words suggest, at least to me, a middle way.
(A freudian slip there? I tapped out "muddle way"..... )
Muddle .
Yes the Middle Way makes sense. A little bit of what you fancy does you good to much makes you ill.....
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  #20  
Old 28-08-2021, 07:51 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Riding on your Zen coat tails :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
The need to respond arises.
Thumbs touch the letters on a tiny screen
Now I'm overthinking things again
Ah, the need arises to respond.
There is no one there
That does not already know.
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Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by daily riding in the balloon of God-perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones, which at best is a nest of troubles.
Meditate unceasingly, that you may quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence, free from every form of misery. ~Paramahansa's Guru's Guru
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