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  #1  
Old 02-12-2022, 06:45 PM
charly233 charly233 is offline
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Arrow Problem of suffering.

I thought I would bring up this perennial issue since I personally find it to be very challenging and interesting. There are some old threads covering this topic but I thought it best to start a new thread.

The ancient question is why does a loving God allow pain and suffering to exist? Is god all powerful? Does god have the ability to stop suffering? Is a god that is not omnipotent a god at all? Or would he or she merely be a very powerful spirit but with limited powers?

I come to this question from the position of seeing myself and god as One. So the question is why do I allow suffering to exist? Am I omnipotent? Can I stop the pain?

In considering this issue I have come very close to a form of atheism that accepts that there is a great spirit and comforter but denies the existence of an omnipotent god.

My own personal experience is that this comforter came of me in a vision of Jesus and helped me to heal my despair and depression. I also came to the realisation that this comforter was not merely an external spirit but also a manfestion of my own deep, authentic self.

So for me the god that I Am is not to blame for the pain and suffering in the universe but is absolutely involved in the process of healing the pain. Although I believe that all pain is actually an illusion it seems to hurt as if it was real. For some people the pain seems so real that it drives them to suicide. I cannot accept that god creates the pain even as an illusion. I feel that god uses the pain nevertheless and is at least sometimes able to create enlightenment and healing out of the pain.

But where does this leave god's omnipotence? Is it a form of atheism if you believe in a god or Spirit with only limited powers? Or maybe it is a form of dualism since it opens the possibility that there is some other source of authority in the universe that is responsible for the illusions of pain and negativity.

My feeling is that the god that I Am is some how omnipotent even though she/he is not responsible for the pain and suffering. And I feel there is only one such being who is the sole lord of the Universe. In honouring this feeling I find myself wondering whether the creator of divine realities is not to blame for the relative, illusionary dream world. Some people would assert that there is a demon responsible for the dream world. But I don't believe this to be the case. I feel that no individuals are to blame but it is the collective impact of all egos that is responsible for the suffering of the dreamworld. I feel that free will comes into the equation here. Without the possibility of pain and the healing of that pain that the god that I Am facilitates there would be no possibility of beings choosing divine reality over the dreamworld from their own free will.

I feel that there is an issue of logic that is pertinent here. There are logical boundaries that seem to limit omnipotence. To be omnipotent is not to be absolutely all powerful with no limitations. As omnipotent beings we cannot defy logic. We cannot decree that 2+2=5. In the same way we cannot decree that free will exists without the possibility of pain.

All of this seems to suggest, it seems to me, that we are co-creators of the agonies and ecstasies of the universe rather than isolated and unique creators on our own. We are not individual creators but we are not just one with god but we actually are God. As gods we are the Grand Comforter and healer of the universe. We are not the creators of pain but the healers of pain. But logic requires that the illusion of pain exists so that our freewill as conscious co-creators exists.
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  #2  
Old 02-12-2022, 09:33 PM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
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which would you rather be? Punished for doing things that lead to death so you have a chance to 'repent' as it was put? Or blissfully being dead?
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  #3  
Old 02-12-2022, 11:40 PM
kris kris is offline
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I see suffering as a consequence of making wrong choices. Since we have free will, it is important that we understand the principle of karma and use that knowledge to make choices that do not lead to suffering.
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  #4  
Old 03-12-2022, 05:41 AM
Redchic12 Redchic12 is offline
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Yes Kris. Totally agree. Everything is choice and consequence.
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  #5  
Old 03-12-2022, 10:32 AM
Unseeking Seeker Unseeking Seeker is offline
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Suffering … we must ask the Buddhists here about this.

On a simplistic basis, let’s plot the coordinates of reference with this hypothesis: ‘We are not this mind-body but rather soul indwelling it for earth life experience, the soul itself being an indivisible part of God’

If we can accept this (substituting the word ‘God’ with ‘existence’ or ‘universal consciousness’ if that’s an issue), then the soul’s temporary ’captivity’ within boundaries of body are inconsequential to the soul. It chooses to experience what’s optimal for its development by overcoming adversity. However, the mind-body identity (ego), which assumes an agenda of it’s own is uncomfortable with anything that contracts it (pain) and prefers what expands it (joy). Both are transient, since they relate to decaying form immersed in cyclic duality.

Let’s say that soul has free will but ego does not. Soul co-creates whilst ego responds to what unfolds. So we may say that our responses or instincts need to be honed, in alignment with truth.

So about suffering, it’s the ego’s indulgence with pain, rooted in fear and desire. For the soul, it experiences pain and joy, learns from it and recalibrates it’s luminosity. However, actions not in alignment with source (God, love) creates karma, hence reincarnation where we rotate polarity* (*exchange roles) to see spherically and repay debts of love owed. Once we’re fully love enabled, we move on to unity consciousness.
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  #6  
Old 03-12-2022, 12:10 PM
Tal M. Tal M. is offline
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You mistake omnipotence with painless existence.

One question.
Imagine that you had no suffering at all. No pain at all. You have everything you've ever wanted. Want the best relationship you could ever have? Boom. You got it.
Unlimited sex? Boom. You got it.
Knowledge for every thing that as ever existed and yet to exist? Boom. You got it.
Happiness? Wholeness? Love? Oneness? Inifinity? You got it all.
You never even have to put effort to have everything you want. Just be and you have it...
Bask in that forever.
...
...
...
...
...
What now..?
Now 'lack' is suddenly interesting.
Interesting enough for God to want to experience it for its very ultimate end.
Hence why he split himself, into infinite souls, servants, to experience all kinds of suffering, even the unimaginable. To put all the feelings in the safebox as God says "Huh... so this is what it feels like."

The universe that contains all universes is in a never ending search for expansion.
I agree that sometimes it can feel like a sick joke to live on earth. But nevertheless, we wouldn't want it any other way. Honestly.
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  #7  
Old 03-12-2022, 05:54 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charly233
The ancient question is why does a loving God allow pain and suffering to exist? Is god all powerful? Does god have the ability to stop suffering?
I suggest that God simply allows all thing to be. There is undoubtedly much suffering on Earth. Some suffering comes from the limitations of physical form and the necessity for all creatures to survive. But most suffering comes from human ignorance, driven by human greed and selfishness.

This reflects the current development of Humanity. The human journey is the journey of the evolution of Consciousness through engaging with the limitations of form. Through bitter experience in form Consciousness develops the qualities of love, wisdom, compassion, acceptance, etc. But it is a slow process.

And as part of this process Humanity may undergo spiritual initiations, becoming more enlightened and more aligned with Divine purpose. So assuming that Humanity survives as a species then in some distant future human beings may create a paradise on Earth where suffering has ceased to exist.

If we can expand our perspective then we might see a Divine Plan unfolding, guided by intelligent Purpose, and the human journey is just a small part of this Plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charly233
I come to this question from the position of seeing myself and god as One. So the question is why do I allow suffering to exist? Am I omnipotent? Can I stop the pain?
Who is this "I" who might allow suffering to exist and might be able to stop the pain?

Consciousness does not suffer. Consciousness does not experience pain. It is only the limited expression of Consciousness in form which suffers and feels pain. And from the perspective of Soul or Consciousness, each human incarnation is very brief, a moment of existence. The suffering passes, the learning remains.

Peace
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  #8  
Old 03-12-2022, 06:28 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charly233
The ancient question is why does a loving God allow pain and suffering to exist?
Do humans not allow suffering to? We have the tendency to place this at the feet of God. IOW do we want God to get directly involved in the affairs of humans and impose its power to put a stop to it forcing compliance. Many people would object to even God using power this way. Don't tell me what to do. What about spiritual texts that communicate, isn't that good enough. Even if God wouldn't allow it would interfere with human developing. Keep in mind though God may allow, who causes.

Last edited by lemex : 03-12-2022 at 07:09 PM.
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  #9  
Old 04-12-2022, 05:35 AM
Redchic12 Redchic12 is offline
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Our thoughts cause most of our suffering.
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  #10  
Old 04-12-2022, 03:04 PM
Hemera Hemera is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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This is such a difficult issue and I'm sure humanity will be discussing it right until the very end.

I think that suffering is to an extent part and parcel of being human and living in a human body with a human mind and emotions, while experiencing the fragility of life and loss.

Some say that suffering is a response to attaching oneself to being human and losing oneself in having a human life, which may be true, but I think everyone barring a few rare totally enlightened souls get attached to being human and living this life. With the absolute best intentions most of us feel the pain of attachment and loss. At least I think so. Who doesn't get attached to their kids? To their pets? And miss their partner when they're away?

But if one can extricate one's identity from this human life and realise that we are more than it, then I guess suffering doesn't have to be prevalent the way we see it in the world today. Most of suffering arises from being totally lost in the identity of being human and thinking our thoughts and emotions are totally who we are, like 'I am angry' rather than 'I am experiencing anger right now' and as a result we suffer more because we are unconscious to the transcendent that lives in us. If we can realise we are transcendent and not just our thoughts and emotions, life becomes easier to manage and suffering is less when we do experience the pain and loss of living a human life.

I believe that we are all part of Spirit, or God, so there IS a higher authority that we are part of and connected to, and we can draw on in times of need. I believe it lives within us and outside us.
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