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  #1  
Old 24-01-2019, 06:12 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Lightbulb The ethical impact of eating Eggs?

I want to talk about eggs with fellow vegetarians and everyone else interested! This is not about meat eating so please stay on topic.

I want to discuss the ethical side to eating eggs (unfertilized) since, over the years, I’ve gone back and forth between lacto-ovo and lacto vegetarianism.

Some people say egg eating is unethical because it causes stress to the hens. I grew up and we had chickens and did not observe this. The hens got old. The chickens don’t get killed, are fed and have a safe barn where no foxes can enter so what would be the problem? It seems an okay trade off.

Then other people say, often those from Indian culture, that eggs are the “property” of the chicken and we must not interfere. Excuse me but why then do you give the free pass to milking cows? Both cows AND chickens have been bred and selected over the millennia to produce an abundance of milk/eggs.

What is your take on this, and why?
Have you tried different veg diets with and without eggs?
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  #2  
Old 24-01-2019, 10:59 PM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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If you take care of any life form yourself you learn more directly, it’s nature, it’s needs, how it fits into your view, then you can decide for you, how to work together. You once had chickens and observed first hand how a happy little eco system supports all life to live more contented in it’s needs. So look at the hen in this way, look at yourself in your needs and decide for you.

I eat eggs. I’m very concerned and consider where they come from, how the hens are treated and have their natural needs met. I don’t have my own yet, but that’s the goal when I can create a more harmonious eco system overall. Until that time I don’t know if I will stop eating eggs. If I observe the chickens this closely, I might.
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Old 24-01-2019, 11:43 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Hens will lay eggs regardless of whether or not they are being kept in the company of a rooster. The hen's body is naturally intended to produce an egg once every 24 to 27 hours, and it will form the egg regardless of whether the egg is actively fertilized during its formation. A hen's egg will be edible regardless of whether it has been fertilized.
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Old 25-01-2019, 01:12 AM
Rah nam Rah nam is offline
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For me it is very simple, for the last 20+ years I am guided by my HS what to eat and what not to eat, any animal products are out, as well any animal husbandry would not be acceptable for me as well as keeping pets.
What anyone else does is up to them. I would not tell anyone what to eat and what not to, or how to engage with animals. This is between them and the animal.
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  #5  
Old 25-01-2019, 05:18 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I want to talk about eggs with fellow vegetarians and everyone else interested! This is not about meat eating so please stay on topic.

I want to discuss the ethical side to eating eggs (unfertilized) since, over the years, I’ve gone back and forth between lacto-ovo and lacto vegetarianism.

Some people say egg eating is unethical because it causes stress to the hens. I grew up and we had chickens and did not observe this. The hens got old. The chickens don’t get killed, are fed and have a safe barn where no foxes can enter so what would be the problem? It seems an okay trade off.

Then other people say, often those from Indian culture, that eggs are the “property” of the chicken and we must not interfere. Excuse me but why then do you give the free pass to milking cows? Both cows AND chickens have been bred and selected over the millennia to produce an abundance of milk/eggs.

What is your take on this, and why?
Have you tried different veg diets with and without eggs?


On the 'Indian culture(s)' thing. When I trained in Buddhist meditation the diet was vegetarian. Eating eggs was forbidden because they considered an egg to be an animal. They were pretty big on dairy - lots of yogurt!
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  #6  
Old 25-01-2019, 10:09 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
On the 'Indian culture(s)' thing. When I trained in Buddhist meditation the diet was vegetarian. Eating eggs was forbidden because they considered an egg to be an animal. They were pretty big on dairy - lots of yogurt!
Didn't you tell them an egg can be unfertilized? You must have tried..!
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  #7  
Old 25-01-2019, 10:16 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Didn't you tell them an egg can be unfertilized? You must have tried..!




We had one person we could ask for basic things like soap and whatnot if we needed, and a teacher we could ask about meditation practice, but other than that, speaking was forbidden.
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Old 27-01-2019, 11:43 AM
Sapphirez Sapphirez is offline
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This is an interesting topic I would like to learn more about. though I apologize in advance my intention is not to learn about why it is a good thing ultimately, however to come to a sounder conclusion I want to factor in the positive and negatives.

So I am a veganinja (more selective version of vegan) and don't intend to ever eat eggs or dairy products again. That being said, while I think eggs are creepier in the general sense, I think that they are far more ethical than taking dairy from a cow or milk from another animal besides a willing human. The most important thing for me to understand, is how these things effect the human body, because there is not only cruelty to the animals that are being taken from to consider, but also cruelty to those that are consuming what's been taken.

It's hard to say how healthy what could be called a chicken's period or menstruation really is for a human. Which is what I want to learn more about, along with how the chicken feels about it.. But as for cow's milk, we know that a cow makes milk when it has a baby, and stealing milk from a baby cow is deplorable. There is the possibility that milk could be taken from a cow who still nurses its baby, because the cow can make as much milk as is demanded for, right? But we know that the likelihood of most milk sellers allowing the mother cow to nurse its baby fully is slim. I know the topic is not about cows but I don't know I felt like doing a comparison between eggs and dairy anyways. Some may find my entire post pointless, but I feel like playing deviled egg's advocate so bear with me if you feel like it

So a chicken can lay eggs without actually making a baby, and it will lay eggs anyways, because nature dictates they do, and also apparently due to them being bred to lay excess eggs over centuries of time. No harm no fowl right? The chicken will lay an egg even without a rooster, and if it's an unfertilized egg then it's not going to be a chick ever any way you slice it, so then will it just go to waste if a human doesn't consume it? It could be food for another animal, or become fertilizer for the ground, I don't know, what other use would it have in nature?

But, the thing is, should a human consume it? Or even another animal? Would it be a decent fertilizer for plants' growth? Would that result in non-vegan vegetation then? Well I don't know the entire explanations for any of these questions, but I do have a couple ideas about what happens to humans when they eat eggs. I definitely don't know what other great use eggs can be for if not for consumption, perhaps just art and decoration?
Anyways, the facts about humans consuming dairy from other animals seem to clearly result in unwanted side effects. Afterall the milk is meant for the growth of a gigantic animal, and one that grows at an alarming rate compared to human infants. There's also the whole ordeal of pasteurization etc.. with raw really being better, but still it is not meant for us. It has too high a protein content and creates mucus and acidity in the body. It clogs up the lymphatic system which is the waste management system of the body and most people cannot afford to have theirs stalled considering the wide array of what the body considers to be primarily waste which a majority of us consume on a daily basis.

Anyways again, but what about the chicken's egg? Granted the human's (and I imagine perhaps all creatures') body is designed to derive nourishment from whatever source it can, but that doesn't mean there aren't repercussions when that source is far from ideal. So yes there is a lot of goodness wrapped up in an egg, because it is supposed to become a life and fully functioning critter. Cats and dogs are full of 'protein' yet in most parts of the world eating them is frowned upon or taboo. there are places that do eat them though, especially dogs unfortunately as I've seen the devastating videos of their 'farms' that are not that uncommon in parts of Asia.. I digress again, human babies might seem like an ideal food source too, but are we supposed to eat them? So we've hopefully established that just because something has markers that seem to make it a viable food source in no way means it actually ought to be.

Fast forward, what about the chicken egg? Lots of protein, but is that actually what the human body wants or needs? Mainstream teachings tell us we need protein but the truth is that the human body only recognizes individual amino acids as building blocks of protein and if it gets complex protein sources, it has to break them down into the amino acids before it can even use them, so in actuality consuming "whole proteins" as we've been advised to, is actually counterproductive and detrimental to the body. It also doesn't need that much protein or amino acids all in all.
The other thing is, most people cook their eggs before eating them and that is a completely different story than if one were to eat a raw egg. Cooking eggs, or anything for that matter, increases toxins and acid potential. It coagulates the protein and just makes a big globby mess of it that the body does not appreciate. The less raw a food is, the less alkaline and more acidic the resulting ash in the body becomes, and in this sense the acid is bad, very bad.. it is like literally introducing acid into the body, and well, that is the root of pretty much all disease.. except for the rare alkalosis, but that is hard to achieve and in reality most disorders are states of acidosis. Sorry I didn't know the ph of eggs but apparently even raw they are highly acidic according to what I just looked up. I didn't think they were alkaline when raw, but still I wasn't sure just how acidic they were. That isn't the main factor to consider whether something is healthy anyways, but it is a good point to consider in pretty much every case. because acid is bad mmk?


another thing I just want to add from personal experience, is that when I was still a vegetarian but moving toward veganism, I ate something with eggs in it and I got the heebie jeebies from it. If you're not familiar with that disorder, it involves feeling like you want to shake and convulse your body all over and not exactly like things are crawling in or on you, but sort of in a way like your body is scrambling about or trying to jump out of itself. I'm not usually very sensitive to things like that, but it was pretty obvious, and it also messed with my head and kind of made me feel like I had a sick crazy hangover.


I know that there's been debate about whether eggs are good or bad for you in the mainstream for quite a while.. There was even an article about it in a spoof newspaper called The Onion which once reported "Eggs good for you this week" but then again in the mainstream it's generally accepted to eat dead animals and all sorts of other things that are troubling to some who put more thought and sentiment into such matters. One of the issues of contention was cholesterol. The interesting thing many don't know about cholesterol, is that it is actually the body's second most preferred antacid, after calcium. Cholesterol is involved in a wealth of other wonderful things, but there is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol. Animal products contain cholesterol that would be bad for our bodies, whereas our bodies actually make their own cholesterol. Ok there is much about cholesterol I don't know about, it wasn't that long ago that I learned it's something natural to the body and important for normal healthy functioning, but just knowing that the body makes good use of it on its own terms is enough for now. along with being aware that there are forms of what is also called cholesterol which is not quite the same which the body does not welcome or deal well with. There's some pretty awesome information about cholesterol, including how it is involved with making nutrients and hormones, so if this kind of thing is of interest to you I think you will be glad you looked into it more.

Well I would apologize for highjacking this thread but I am pretty sure that my tangents won't be a major point of this thread so don't mind me.. but sorry for how off topic I went as I just talked about things I know and only understand basics about why eggs are not that great of a food for humans. That is really my main concern, though I do definitely care about issues of animal welfare and since the beginning post established about these being chickens that are specifically well cared for I guess there is not much to say about the cruelty factor because it seems pretty harmless to take unfertilized eggs that will otherwise apparently have no profound use.. maybe somebody else will know more about that topic but from the posts here and elsewhere online it seems that it's not really harmful to take those eggs which are going to be laid no matter what. That makes me wonder why Buddhists think egg consumption is wrong when it's perfectly plausible to have unfertilized ones, and also why they think that stealing milk from cows is okay on the other hand. I mean they probably have a lot of respect for the cow and make sure their babies are still fed adequately, unlike the common culture in factory farming, etc.. but still, that milk has an ideal purpose whereas if the chicken is not getting laid then its laid unfertilized eggs have no other grand purpose, right? I do think that Buddhists should have the sense to see that the cow's milk is made perfectly for the growth of the cow though which is not nearly the same as a human and what it needs.. Don't get me wrong, I respect and admire a lot of what Buddhism entails and stands for, but I guess there is silliness or senselessness within most any religion.. Well I guess I will end this ridiculous rant here, thank you for reading if you did, or if you didn't lol..



Gem that is awesome that you experienced such an intense immersion in a culture like that! Have you made a thread about your time doing that or other such interesting things?
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  #9  
Old 27-01-2019, 12:28 PM
Pagandell Pagandell is offline
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Bunny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Didn't you tell them an egg can be unfertilized? You must have tried..!
Even if the egg is unfertilized it is still fleshy and distasteful to me
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  #10  
Old 27-01-2019, 01:14 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphirez
This is an interesting topic I would like to learn more about. though I apologize in advance my intention is not to learn about why it is a good thing ultimately, however to come to a sounder conclusion I want to factor in the positive and negatives.

So I am a veganinja (more selective version of vegan) and don't intend to ever eat eggs or dairy products again. That being said, while I think eggs are creepier in the general sense, I think that they are far more ethical than taking dairy from a cow or milk from another animal besides a willing human. The most important thing for me to understand, is how these things effect the human body, because there is not only cruelty to the animals that are being taken from to consider, but also cruelty to those that are consuming what's been taken.

It's hard to say how healthy what could be called a chicken's period or menstruation really is for a human. Which is what I want to learn more about, along with how the chicken feels about it.. But as for cow's milk, we know that a cow makes milk when it has a baby, and stealing milk from a baby cow is deplorable. There is the possibility that milk could be taken from a cow who still nurses its baby, because the cow can make as much milk as is demanded for, right? But we know that the likelihood of most milk sellers allowing the mother cow to nurse its baby fully is slim. I know the topic is not about cows but I don't know I felt like doing a comparison between eggs and dairy anyways. Some may find my entire post pointless, but I feel like playing deviled egg's advocate so bear with me if you feel like it

So a chicken can lay eggs without actually making a baby, and it will lay eggs anyways, because nature dictates they do, and also apparently due to them being bred to lay excess eggs over centuries of time. No harm no fowl right? The chicken will lay an egg even without a rooster, and if it's an unfertilized egg then it's not going to be a chick ever any way you slice it, so then will it just go to waste if a human doesn't consume it? It could be food for another animal, or become fertilizer for the ground, I don't know, what other use would it have in nature?

But, the thing is, should a human consume it? Or even another animal? Would it be a decent fertilizer for plants' growth? Would that result in non-vegan vegetation then? Well I don't know the entire explanations for any of these questions, but I do have a couple ideas about what happens to humans when they eat eggs. I definitely don't know what other great use eggs can be for if not for consumption, perhaps just art and decoration?
Anyways, the facts about humans consuming dairy from other animals seem to clearly result in unwanted side effects. Afterall the milk is meant for the growth of a gigantic animal, and one that grows at an alarming rate compared to human infants. There's also the whole ordeal of pasteurization etc.. with raw really being better, but still it is not meant for us. It has too high a protein content and creates mucus and acidity in the body. It clogs up the lymphatic system which is the waste management system of the body and most people cannot afford to have theirs stalled considering the wide array of what the body considers to be primarily waste which a majority of us consume on a daily basis.

Anyways again, but what about the chicken's egg? Granted the human's (and I imagine perhaps all creatures') body is designed to derive nourishment from whatever source it can, but that doesn't mean there aren't repercussions when that source is far from ideal. So yes there is a lot of goodness wrapped up in an egg, because it is supposed to become a life and fully functioning critter. Cats and dogs are full of 'protein' yet in most parts of the world eating them is frowned upon or taboo. there are places that do eat them though, especially dogs unfortunately as I've seen the devastating videos of their 'farms' that are not that uncommon in parts of Asia.. I digress again, human babies might seem like an ideal food source too, but are we supposed to eat them? So we've hopefully established that just because something has markers that seem to make it a viable food source in no way means it actually ought to be.

Fast forward, what about the chicken egg? Lots of protein, but is that actually what the human body wants or needs? Mainstream teachings tell us we need protein but the truth is that the human body only recognizes individual amino acids as building blocks of protein and if it gets complex protein sources, it has to break them down into the amino acids before it can even use them, so in actuality consuming "whole proteins" as we've been advised to, is actually counterproductive and detrimental to the body. It also doesn't need that much protein or amino acids all in all.
The other thing is, most people cook their eggs before eating them and that is a completely different story than if one were to eat a raw egg. Cooking eggs, or anything for that matter, increases toxins and acid potential. It coagulates the protein and just makes a big globby mess of it that the body does not appreciate. The less raw a food is, the less alkaline and more acidic the resulting ash in the body becomes, and in this sense the acid is bad, very bad.. it is like literally introducing acid into the body, and well, that is the root of pretty much all disease.. except for the rare alkalosis, but that is hard to achieve and in reality most disorders are states of acidosis. Sorry I didn't know the ph of eggs but apparently even raw they are highly acidic according to what I just looked up. I didn't think they were alkaline when raw, but still I wasn't sure just how acidic they were. That isn't the main factor to consider whether something is healthy anyways, but it is a good point to consider in pretty much every case. because acid is bad mmk?


another thing I just want to add from personal experience, is that when I was still a vegetarian but moving toward veganism, I ate something with eggs in it and I got the heebie jeebies from it. If you're not familiar with that disorder, it involves feeling like you want to shake and convulse your body all over and not exactly like things are crawling in or on you, but sort of in a way like your body is scrambling about or trying to jump out of itself. I'm not usually very sensitive to things like that, but it was pretty obvious, and it also messed with my head and kind of made me feel like I had a sick crazy hangover.


I know that there's been debate about whether eggs are good or bad for you in the mainstream for quite a while.. There was even an article about it in a spoof newspaper called The Onion which once reported "Eggs good for you this week" but then again in the mainstream it's generally accepted to eat dead animals and all sorts of other things that are troubling to some who put more thought and sentiment into such matters. One of the issues of contention was cholesterol. The interesting thing many don't know about cholesterol, is that it is actually the body's second most preferred antacid, after calcium. Cholesterol is involved in a wealth of other wonderful things, but there is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol. Animal products contain cholesterol that would be bad for our bodies, whereas our bodies actually make their own cholesterol. Ok there is much about cholesterol I don't know about, it wasn't that long ago that I learned it's something natural to the body and important for normal healthy functioning, but just knowing that the body makes good use of it on its own terms is enough for now. along with being aware that there are forms of what is also called cholesterol which is not quite the same which the body does not welcome or deal well with. There's some pretty awesome information about cholesterol, including how it is involved with making nutrients and hormones, so if this kind of thing is of interest to you I think you will be glad you looked into it more.

Well I would apologize for highjacking this thread but I am pretty sure that my tangents won't be a major point of this thread so don't mind me.. but sorry for how off topic I went as I just talked about things I know and only understand basics about why eggs are not that great of a food for humans. That is really my main concern, though I do definitely care about issues of animal welfare and since the beginning post established about these being chickens that are specifically well cared for I guess there is not much to say about the cruelty factor because it seems pretty harmless to take unfertilized eggs that will otherwise apparently have no profound use.. maybe somebody else will know more about that topic but from the posts here and elsewhere online it seems that it's not really harmful to take those eggs which are going to be laid no matter what. That makes me wonder why Buddhists think egg consumption is wrong when it's perfectly plausible to have unfertilized ones, and also why they think that stealing milk from cows is okay on the other hand. I mean they probably have a lot of respect for the cow and make sure their babies are still fed adequately, unlike the common culture in factory farming, etc.. but still, that milk has an ideal purpose whereas if the chicken is not getting laid then its laid unfertilized eggs have no other grand purpose, right? I do think that Buddhists should have the sense to see that the cow's milk is made perfectly for the growth of the cow though which is not nearly the same as a human and what it needs.. Don't get me wrong, I respect and admire a lot of what Buddhism entails and stands for, but I guess there is silliness or senselessness within most any religion.. Well I guess I will end this ridiculous rant here, thank you for reading if you did, or if you didn't lol..



Gem that is awesome that you experienced such an intense immersion in a culture like that! Have you made a thread about your time doing that or other such interesting things?




It was great; one of the best things I ever did in my life. I didn't make a thread on it, but I mention it sometines, like, 'when I did my meditation training... something something something...'.


About the food, we basically followed Vedic eating. Veda is much more ancient than Buddhism, and the diet is strictly vegetarian with no onions or garlic. No eggs - but dairy is permitted and consumed daily mostly as yogurt. Other traditions, like many Hindu sects, the Jains, as well as Hare Krishnas, also base their eating on the more ancient Vedic way.


There is a moral code which Buddhists call 'sila'. The basis of Buddhism is to end all suffering, so the moral principle is to benefit rather than harm. The meditation called vipassana (which basically means to see things as they are or to see things in the right way) is what we now call mindfulness mindfulness meditation, and is also known as insight meditation. The meditation is based on sila, and one has to have the proper morality and conduct to have a solid foundation for meditation, and meditation is the 'way to end suffering'. Of course it is obvious that a great deal of suffering is caused by immorality, and hence sila is vital to ending it. It makes sense, then, that the way to end suffering necessitates a moral foundation.


The moral precept, do not kill, implies we cannot eat meat, and it is also true that the Vedic vegetarian diet is the best diet for meditation practice.


You have to take a vow to live by the moral code. No lying, no killing or harming living things, no sexual misconduct, no intoxication, no lying or gossiping or otherwise harmful speech. They will not teach anyone who doesn't take that vow. To ensure this is upheld during the meditation training, talking is forbidden so there is no harmful speech; the sexes are segregated, physical contact of any kind is forbidden and complete celibacy is practiced, so there is no sexual misconduct; meditation students are not allowed to leave the ashram for the duration of their study so you can't go out to get alcohol; and you are only given vegetarian meals so you can not eat things that were killed. No phones, computers or reading or writing material is allowed, and you left with only your body, clothes and toiletries. If you break any rule, they tell you to leave.

It seems very strict, austere and unreasonable, but the rules are there to make sure you live by the moral code, and by extension, because the rules create the optimum conditions for serious meditation practice. Once you start your training you begin to understand why they have such strict conditions, and you start to realise that this isn't a lovey dovey, huggy wuggy nice little retreat, and it is very serious and intense work of spiritual purification.
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