On Conception and Abortions --- From A Spiritist Perspective

Originally Posted by Kioma

My apologies again Leadville. You're right, my post takes a very simplistic and generic view, and deviates on multiple issues.

thank you

You are a taskmaster,

Worse has been said.

but within your right.

Let me tie my points specifically to point 9 of the OP.

I had to look back. That was midwinter when the conversation with Still Waters began. It was one point among several and was specifically in connection with Spiritism at that point.

First of all I do not believe there are any 'laws' of God that can be transgressed. We are talking about GOD, not some local Constable. The universe INNATELY regulates what you can and cannot do - THAT is what the 'law' of God looks like. THAT is why there is evil and suffering in the world, because a LAW of God is 'Thou shalt have free will', and that's just the way it IS. There are consequences, but they are a matter of self-definition and evolution, NOT crime and punishment. THAT is what a 'law' of God looks like. God doesn't make 'laws' that you can flout willy-nilly and other people just suffer for it because someone decides not to follow the 'law'. All you have to do is look around you to compare what people tell you about 'God's law' and what actually happens. It is much deeper and more complex than that - but it IMPOSSIBLE to break a law of God. If there are certain things God does not want you to do, I don't think it's much of a stretch to think God has the power and authority to make sure you DON'T. It is written into the very fabric of existence - the universes and by extension yours.

Well it wasn't my choice of phrase 'law of God', it was Still Waters' but I'd call it the natural law rather than 'God's law'. One natural law is that of cause and effect and could be a detailed conversation in itself, covering much we might consider. You might prefer to call it 'universal law' which takes the God element out of any debate.

Point 9 basically states that the PRIORITY is for the child.

That's not exactly what it says.....

Well, what about the mother's 'experiencing the trials for which she IS to be the instrument? Why is it all of a sudden that is no longer important? If a woman wants an abortion, obviously she has a reason for thinking as she does. It may be a reason we agree is 'good', and it may not, but to just arbitrarily assume that the PRIORITY of the child supersedes that of the mother is a bit presumptuous, don't you agree?

Now we're into another conversation. You're saying "PRIORITY" but Still Waters didn't actually say that in his opening posting.

One can imagine scenarios where that may be true - some expedient may have come up that actually makes the child's 'trials for which it is to be an instrument' of higher priority than the mothers - but even that is problematic. How does anybody not know that if that child is a female, and grows up and becomes pregnant, then her unborn child will be determined to have higher priority than the woman whose mother's body sovereignty was forcibly taken away because of the very same thing? Wouldn't that be a rather reactive and short-sighted way to run a universe?

You're straying away from the issues in Point 9 but please don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing with you. I feel the indignation you feel yet I am conflicted over spirit-teaching compared with what I feel I understand from my personal guidance.

So that's the point I was making above, either spirit has a plan, or it doesn't.

You could say "spirit has a plan" but the actuality is that WE incarnates made whatever 'plan' we decided for ourselves before we incarnated on this last occasion. That's how I understand things and the approach I take towards life.

If you believe spirit proceeds based on foreknowledge of what is to be done, then abortion is NOT a crime, as it too will be completely foreseeable - and if abortion is not foreseeable, then how could anything else be?

My reaction to this is essentially what I wrote directly above. I see it that WE proceed in line with our individual, our personal, spiritual progress. Free will is open to us all - within certain limits - and what happens in our incarnate life is shaped by the decisions we freely took before we incarnated, the decisions we take in our human forms and the impact on our lives of others' free-will actions or omissions.

I'd love to discuss in more depth some more of your previous reply, and points 8, 10 and 11 of the OP as well, but I feel it best if I focus there for a start.

I would be happy to speak with you further on any points I feel able to offer my thoughts about. My only request would be that we stick to one or maybe just a few points at a time to avoid things getting long-winded and messy!

Originally Posted by Elfin

I feel that I need to speak out about "abortion". There are many reasons why a woman would have an "abortion", a word which I find so cold and heartless. But this is my story. I was a teenager in the 70's when I got pregnant. When I told the father of the child that I was expecting, he beat me to a pulp. I made "some" excuse to my parents and refused to disclose to my father who the boyfriend was as he would have killed him. This was only for beating me up. They did not know I was pregnant. When they found out nothing much was said except for 2 things. My father told me he had "washed his hands of me, I was no daughter of his".. my mother just said "I'll take you to the doctor's". It had been made clear to me that I would be out on the streets, no where to live , no money , and no hope. So we went to the doctor's where a test did confirm I was pregnant. Then a discussion occured between the doctor and my mother about "termination" . Not once was I asked my opinion. Not once was I asked "Do you want to keep your baby?".... Not once... The night before it happened I sat up all night in the garden stroking my tummy and telling my child what was about to happen and why. I cried all night long telling my baby over and over how sorry I was and how much I loved him..... And then it was all over. There was a woman in the next bed to me that must have been in her late 30,s that was "getting rid of the evidence" of an affair. I wanted to strangle her and say "don't even feel yourself worthy of talking to me"...After 21 years of crying , i had to try to move on. As I knew in my mind he was "an adult": now. And even now when I think of him, the guilt will not go away. He would be over 40 now. Please feel free to ask any questions...Elfin.

I am so sad to hear what happened to you, Elfin, and I sensed you wanted to share something. I agree that the word abortion is cold and it's clinical and lacking compassion. It's why I prefer to say 'termination' - they're only words but words are all we have.

Your story is desperately sad and clearly no-one cared a jot about YOU. Your parents let you down, the behavior of the father of your child was despicable. I could use different words but not when I'm writing in public.

I expect you must still be hurting and I totally get that - why wouldn't you? But your child will understand what happened and why - he's not a child now of course. He will have had love and help and will be doing just fine. You deserve to forgive yourself; circumstances and other people determined what happened. You didn't get a proper say and that was plain wrong.

I'm not defending your parents but they may never have had a chance either. Maybe they did to you what they'd been indoctrinated into doing by upbringing, society, church or whatever. Again I'm not defending them but often an abuser has been abused or maybe it was simply what they'd learned from others as they grew up.

I hope my thoughts have helped you a little.

Originally Posted by leadville

I am so sad to hear what happened to you, Elfin, and I sensed you wanted to share something. I agree that the word abortion is cold and it's clinical and lacking compassion. It's why I prefer to say 'termination' - they're only words but words are all we have.

Your story is desperately sad and clearly no-one cared a jot about YOU. Your parents let you down, the behavior of the father of your child was despicable. I could use different words but not when I'm writing in public.

I expect you must still be hurting and I totally get that - why wouldn't you? But your child will understand what happened and why - he's not a child now of course. He will have had love and help and will be doing just fine. You deserve to forgive yourself; circumstances and other people determined what happened. You didn't get a proper say and that was plain wrong.

I'm not defending your parents but they may never have had a chance either. Maybe they did to you what they'd been indoctrinated into doing by upbringing, society, church or whatever. Again I'm not defending them but often an abuser has been abused or maybe it was simply what they'd learned from others as they grew up.

I hope my thoughts have helped you a little.

Thank you. Your words are very kind. I could never do to a child of mine what was done to me. I simply couldn't. But having said that I have looked back and often wondered should I have done more? Should I have stood up to them? Should I have run away?... But I am also HSP/ empath ..and during those years I didn't know what was "wrong" with me. I knew I was "different" but I didn't know why and because of it I was quiet and introverted and my father was fiercesome. And even then I am not trying to make excuses or seek pity for I deserve neither. I should have protected my child and I didn't. But he was always loved.

Originally Posted by Elfin

Thank you. Your words are very kind. I could never do to a child of mine what was done to me. I simply couldn't. But having said that I have looked back and often wondered should I have done more? Should I have stood up to them? Should I have run away?... But I am also HSP/ empath ..and during those years I didn't know what was "wrong" with me. I knew I was "different" but I didn't know why and because of it I was quiet and introverted and my father was fiercesome. And even then I am not trying to make excuses or seek pity for I deserve neither. I should have protected my child and I didn't. But he was always loved.

I guess you'll keep beating yourself up but you're reproaching yourself for something that at the the time you just couldn't change and at the time you were too young to stick out to achieve a different outcome.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision and we see better looking back and often wish how we'd done something different. I would imagine many of us regret things we did or didn't do. Add to that your heightened sensitivity/empathy and you're likely to feel it even more acutely than you might have done had you not been.

I don't know you so I need to ask if you're OK with what you know about life, death and survival?

Originally Posted by leadville

I guess you'll keep beating yourself up but you're reproaching yourself for something that at the the time you just couldn't change and at the time you were too young to stick out to achieve a different outcome.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision and we see better looking back and often wish how we'd done something different. I would imagine many of us regret things we did or didn't do. Add to that your heightened sensitivity/empathy and you're likely to feel it even more acutely than you might have done had you not been.

I don't know you so I need to ask if you're OK with what you know about life, death and survival?

Hi, yes I am ok with all of that. I know that there is no such thing as death. I believe in past lives. I have spirits of loved ones around me all the time. My twin sister is always with me. But it's hard because I never knew what happened to him. I've never felt his presence. I would love to think that he was born again into a loving family. But somehow I'm tortured with the image that his little soul never went to spirit as punishment to me! One day , I am sure I will find out! Thank you for being so kind... Many would call me names, and if they did that I would understand.

Originally Posted by leadville

I would be happy to speak with you further on any points I feel able to offer my thoughts about. My only request would be that we stick to one or maybe just a few points at a time to avoid things getting long-winded and messy!

Good idea.

Originally Posted by leadville

I had to look back. That was midwinter when the conversation with Still Waters began. It was one point among several and was specifically in connection with Spiritism at that point.

By 'OP' I meant 'Original Post'

Point 9, from the first post, is this:

9. (Regarding abortion) A crime is always committed when the law of God is transgressed. The mother or any other person involved always commits a crime upon taking the life of a child before its birth because it prevents a soul from experiencing the trials for which the unborn's body was to been the instrument.

Perhaps I missed something, but is this not what the topic is about? Are you talking about one thing while I am talking about another?

You do seem to be arguing for what the topic is about and what has been said - so, what do you think it is about if not the topic of the thread?

Originally Posted by leadville

Well it wasn't my choice of phrase 'law of God', it was Still Waters' but I'd call it the natural law rather than 'God's law'. One natural law is that of cause and effect and could be a detailed conversation in itself, covering much we might consider. You might prefer to call it 'universal law' which takes the God element out of any debate.

Previous question aside, I just have to talk about this. This is the same kind of thing I was just talking about.

Who created the universe? God did.

What is God? I have no idea. Another name I have for God is 'mystery'. I attribute all mysteries of the universe to 'God', because that's as far as I can get. So it follows that God, having created the universe, also wrote 'natural law'.

How would you explain it?

And I apologize again, but I have a terrible habit of asking questions. Some people grow out of it, but I never did - in fact, the older I get, it seems the more I grow into it.

Originally Posted by hazada guess

The Brain is responsible for the workings of the body,the soul is the inner voice,responsible for thought,emotion,etc.

How does what you've said above relate to my piece that you quoted?

Originally Posted by Kioma

Good idea.



By 'OP' I meant 'Original Post'

I am totally au fait with 'op' referring to the 'original poster' or 'original posting'.

Point 9, from the first post, is this:

I did read Point 9, the one Still Water wrote and I referred earlier to having done that.

Perhaps I missed something, but is this not what the topic is about? Are you talking about one thing while I am talking about another?

We're going round in circles. I did say I had looked back to Point 9. That was just one point among many others. The reason I looked again was to get the context of the point - the thread did start in January so it's quite a time since I'd been involved.

You do seem to be arguing for what the topic is about and what has been said - so, what do you think it is about if not the topic of the thread?

Doesn't this just make my point about keeping discussions to one topic? To be clear about the situation the point you've asked about - Point 9 - is simply one point from 11 points. It is NOT the topic of the thread. It's one topic raised for discussion in the context of 'On Conception and Abortions --- From A Spiritist Perspective' If memory serves me well at the time I discussed points about both Spiritism and Spiritualism as part of a conversation with Still Waters, the man who started this thread.

Previous question aside, I just have to talk about this. This is the same kind of thing I was just talking about.

Who created the universe? God did.

What is God? I have no idea. Another name I have for God is 'mystery'. I attribute all mysteries of the universe to 'God', because that's as far as I can get. So it follows that God, having created the universe, also wrote 'natural law'.

How would you explain it?

I'm not sure I should be trying to explain to anyone a concept that one of our most respected teacher/guides declared difficult to explain. But let's go with the simple stuff. God didn't write any thing. God hasn't ever written any thing. The natural law won't be found written in some tome. God isn't a person or thing. My responses are not in any particular order of importance or significance.

And I apologize again, but I have a terrible habit of asking questions. Some people grow out of it, but I never did - in fact, the older I get, it seems the more I grow into it.

You don't have to apologise for asking questions. It's a terrible habit only if you someone doesn't stay on topic and/or doesn't build a dialogue and respond to points made.

I write extensively elsewhere and I constantly ask questions. You're not unique and I don't find you awkward if that's any concern for you. I ask questions to try to stimulate others with their thinking and perhaps to get them asking questions in return.

Originally Posted by Elfin

Hi, yes I am ok with all of that. I know that there is no such thing as death. I believe in past lives. I have spirits of loved ones around me all the time. My twin sister is always with me.

thank you - I thought you probably knew but I decided just to check.

But it's hard because I never knew what happened to him. I've never felt his presence. I would love to think that he was born again into a loving family.

That's awful sad you don't feel him the way you can feel your sister and others. I can't say why that should be but contact can never be guaranteed. Perhaps he actually is around but maybe your grief and guilt makes it hard or impossible for him to approach you. Could you mentally send out a request to your 'regulars' to find out on your behalf? I don't know if you're in actual communication with any of them so that might be a viable idea.

It is quite possible your son has indeed undertaken a new life and I also hope it's a happy one, the kind you would have wanted to give him.

But somehow I'm tortured with the image that his little soul never went to spirit as punishment to me!

I'm so sorry you worry about that. Your thoughts are your self-punishment and there's likely nobody more judgmental about you than you yourself. I feel sure others will already have told you what I had thought about saying to try to reassure you. So I won't say it....

One day , I am sure I will find out! Thank you for being so kind... Many would call me names, and if they did that I would understand.

I only wish I could help. One day I am totally certain you will learn all the details. It's possible your guides and your sister have already helped you during your visits to their world during sleep, visits we're told happens routinely. But we don't usually remember these visits at a conscious level and without remembering them your grief and guilt won't leave you. It's very frustrating I can't tell you anything helpful.

If you haven't tried before would you consider sitting with a (spiritual) medium? I'm assuming you're in the US where mediums are few and far between and that can make it hard to find a reputable, experienced one.

I'm so sorry some people call you names. Some are just dreadfully hurtful.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Elfin

Thank you. Your words are very kind. I could never do to a child of mine what was done to me. I simply couldn't. But having said that I have looked back and often wondered should I have done more? Should I have stood up to them? Should I have run away?... But I am also HSP/ empath ..and during those years I didn't know what was "wrong" with me. I knew I was "different" but I didn't know why and because of it I was quiet and introverted and my father was fiercesome. And even then I am not trying to make excuses or seek pity for I deserve neither. I should have protected my child and I didn't. But he was always loved.

Elfin,

I am so sad hearing what happened to you and the baby.

Instead of you giving me hugs, I should be holding you,

I never experienced what you went thru.


I do know of a woman who told me I was her unborn baby's father. I thought she was joking and then she broke down and wished that I was the father. I hope she recovered.

By sharing, you are on your way for 'healing'. I am sending you healing right now. I wished I could say more. Take care.