Saying "back, back, back"

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

It’s quite simple and straightforward Gem There is no negation. agendaless

I agree, except that it's subtle and complex, and it makes no sense. So, This is the contradiction:

The essence of it is is right, watch thought, breath, and all experience, change and pass (it's a fact of nature). But the contradiction is this involves no negation. If you advocate this observation approach you can't operate the volitional approach at the same time. Contrary to there being no negation, one of these necessitates the cessation of the other. Hence the crazy notion: surrender to the will of God. They say that because it's more palatable than surrendering your own, but you can't really have that cake and eat it too.

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ Gem ~ we agree to disagree

Edit: so as not to sound abrupt, it seems our coordinates of reference are different. Breath will flow anyway. At some stage we have to release attention. Breath is just another object, an occurrence. Anyway, we’re headed nowhere with this discussion, in as nothing new is being brought to the table.

[peteyzen]

I`m with gem on this one, although, I have to say I like your innovative method of overcoming a problem.
A method I use which ties in gems pure simple focus on the breath with a way to train that focus, is when you notice that your mind has moved or is thinking or doing anything other than watching the breath, is to Thank yourself for the test, literally in your mind, say these words, "thank you for the test without it I cannot learn".
Then, with a feeling of `well done me for noticing the mind has moved`, return your mind to watching the breath.
I say with a feeling of well done me, because its best not to go the other way and get angry or upset with yourself. You have noticed, the mind has moved away from the focus of the meditation, this is good, so tell yourself well done.

Do this simple practice every time you notice its moved, even if its 5 times in a minute. After a while the mind will surrender and shut up lol!

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

nothing new is being brought to the table.

You first said what we were talking about is not worth discussing, which was clearly dismissive, and now you are effectively reiterating that, so I'm not buying it. My opinion is I have some experience and a reasonable understanding of breath awareness and mindfulness in general, and that's is a nuanced discussion I can contribute meaningfully to. I don't mind that some people think it's unworthy. Probably most people do, but I think you might consider how you came and dismissed our conversion as not worth talking about, then stood atop the menial to cast petals about.

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ Gem ~ as I said, I’ll pass. As for your reaction to what was offered, it’s for you resolve within yourself.

It’s not that we cannot go on discussing. We can do that endlessly. But to what purpose? I have no desire to impose any knowing, which in any case is impossible. On the other hand you’ve dismissed the entire Vijnana Bhairava Tantra 112 meditations! I’m curious; have you read it before rejecting the teaching? Or the Ashtavakra Gita?

There are thousands of paths, all leading to the same source. However, the common thread in all is that we need to relinquish lower mind. Use intelligence of the heart instead, which requires illusionary identity to vaporise.

Meanwhile, enjoy this great video I chanced to come upon ~ https://youtu.be/69ksmfPZyME

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ peteyzen ~ what I’m saying is that we get to awareness without thought. Now, it begins with nonchalant observation but after a while thought waves ebb away altogether. It takes time because we are totally identified with the thinking process. There comes a time, a shift, if we wish to call it that, when we abide in thought rested awareness continuously.

Effectively, we may say our orientation is meditational for in meditation too, of any type, eventually the object of focus has to be relinquished, if we wish to dive deeper.

Once the clutter of thought is out of the way, there is a shift from separateness to interconnectedness to oneness. Nondual awareness. There may be oscillation, yes but the recognition is clear.

We cannot use the mind to go beyond mind. As such, the way can be pointed out to, that’s all. The shift, if chosen, has to be adopted by each person internally.

As for breath, it’s fine, nothing wrong with watching it etc. but at some stage we have to release doership of that activity. That’s the same as letting go.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

https://youtu.be/69ksmfPZyME

I don't know hat 112 things are, so I googled it and found a list of things, but we were talking about some more fundamental things like some principles of meditation such as 'just observe', but usually contradict that in practice. We weren't really talking about breath meditation as such, except in context of its 'just observe' or non-volitional nature, and the implications of that. Of course that doe not preclude practical tips as well.

There was a whole bunch of stuff about reactivity inciting the volition making you cease to se it 'as it is' into making it 'as you want to be' via the avoidance, resistance, persuit, yearning and and clutching etc... And then, you came along and basically wrote it off and put your apparently worthy voice on top. Not that what you said was worthless. You could have added to that conversation, contributed to it, but you dismissed it and tried to get on top. Now you're trying to make that about my reaction so you appear pristine, but there again, I was already talking about reactions in the thread. About how they relate to sensation, we become aware of them, how they incite the volition, how they can make us miserable, and the means by which can cease doing that ... lots of nuance about reaction in the discussion, and not only that, but how all of these aspects operate together...

I'm finding this bizarre in the sense that we were having a relevant, nuanced and in-depth discussion, which was not necessarily agreeable, but honest enough, which you wrote off - probably because you didn't really know what we'd brought up already, perhaps couldn't understand it, or possibly aren't prepared to see if it's true, and if it is, the way in which it is true for you.

There was breath, feelings of the body, the emotional content, the mentalities and all of it - all were part of the discussion in the context of the observer, the generation of volition, goodwill and ill-will through the interplay of body/feeling/mind/mental content. Then the 112 things are fine, and no doubt breath awareness is one or more them... but those ones aren't even worth discussing, so...

[Gem]

Originally Posted by peteyzen

pure simple focus on the breath

My approach is more radical, and I don't 'agree' with the 'thanks' because it is volitionally generated thought, and volitional thinking contradicts the underpinning 'just observe', 'mere awareness' or 'pure focus' principle of mindful meditation. That's not the same as saying I don't like it or it doesn't work. It's merely a statement on the consistency of the practice with the underlying principles thereof. Of course it works just fine and no doubt has special benefits. I personally would suggest stop doing that and be completely consistent with 'just observe' approach, but that doesn't mean I discourage it, and really, for the all the difference it makes, small inconsistencies like back back and thanks aren't going 'out of bounds' or anything crazy... just that such intentional verbalisation is best kept minimal in keeping with the principle of pure observation.

In the Buddhist philosophy there is both 'mere awareness', which alludes to pure observation, and there is also 'ardent awareness' which is like a piercing deeply or something like that. In the breath practice we employ mere awareness, nothing but awareness, and also ardent awareness to really examine the feeling of the air and become conscious of it in deeper subtle ways. Hence we don't have a verbalisation to make attention remain with the breath, but rather, we regard the feeling of the breath with ardent awareness, and try to feel the finest most subtle aspects of that feeling as we can.

That principle of mere-yet-ardent-awareness extends to the body/mind more generally as per the 4 pillars of mindfulness (body, feeling, mind, mentalities), but it's best to cultivate that perceptive sensitivity to feelings with the breath first. Later on it can be expanded as mentioned, but the body is a complicated old thing with its impurities, blocks and stuck emotional associations and stuff...

[Gem]

The video starts with the Indian guy performing a spiritual parade so already rolling my eyes and being put off by the facade - but the video turned out to be really good after all. Just light critique: it lacked science-like precision. For example, "attachment to body" is very ambiguous if we don't realise the facets that entails, and if we don't know attachment as real behavioural tendencies, it doesn't mean anything as an abstraction. But, aside from my peculiar pedantic preferences, I really thought it's worth a look.

[Redchic12]

I really GET where you are coming from Gem and I think you have some really good points for meditating. I’ve tried the back back thing and I like it. It’s especially good for someone who is in the early stages of meditating!

I also feel that why we disagree so much is because we are all at different stages with with our meditation practices ie we take what we have learnt in this meditative state and try to explain what IT is all about.

I feel there is no one particular IT. What you see, feel and experience is dependant on many things such as the stage of meditation you have reached, life experiences, stage of evolution, religious beliefs, culture etc

Imagine a high school kid and a primary school kid who have both been shown how to meditate and afterwards are asked about the their experiences. Well needless to say, one would be adamant about his being right and the other would be adamant about theirs. Each thinking they were the one that was correct.

Neither are right or wrong IMO It’s just where you are at in your own stage of evolution.

Anyway that’s my thoughts about it and I honestly think that there is absolutely NO POINT in pushing your own beliefs on to someone else cos it will NOT work and it will only make others stand up for their own beliefs even more! Just futile!

I really enjoy reading other peoples experiences of meditation and about things that have helped them along the way. But when people start stating directly or indirectly that THEIR way is the only way and the RIGHt way and imply that others are inferior, then that is totally disrespectful!

Oh well just my thoughts.