Why I'm not a Taoist

[Still_Waters]

Tao 13 (Near the very end):

"Know the universe as your self, and
... you can live absolutely anywhere in comfort."

For me, this verse stands on its own. However, for those who want more context, here is a link (with appropriate credit given to Winter Light) to five different alternate translations of the Tao. That should be sufficient to satisfy anyone who cannot read the original Chinese (like myself).

https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:...,rh/section:13

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

That, of course, comes next ... but I thought that I would start the discussion about "beyond the realm of the 5 senses" with something more basic and very concrete.

Oooops, lo siento mucho

[ayar415]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 145 EXCERPT:
I remembered seeing my body from afar (fairly standard in NDEs) and a vast panorama beyond the five senses. I could "see" my brother and sister down the hallway and could describe precisely what they were wearing even though they never entered the room where my body was. I verified those details later and they corresponded exactly to what I had "seen" from afar.

So, you had recollections of "seeing your body from afar", as well as, seeing your brother and sister down the hallway outside the room in which your body was?

Can we conclude that you did not see with the eyes of your body? You could see in a way that had nothing to do with the 5 senses of a human being as understood by a medical doctor. Right?

I can also see things very vividly with my eyes closed in a lucid dream during sleep. Would you agree that your "seeing your body from afar" was a similar kind of seeing?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Over 50 years ago, I emerged completely symptom-free from a 3-day "irreversible" coma with a vivid recollection of all that had transpired during that state.
I remembered seeing my body from afar (fairly standard in NDEs) and a vast panorama beyond the five senses.
...I verified those details later and they corresponded exactly to what I had "seen" from afar. .... served as a catalyst to my spiritual quest ...

Ha, yes ...that certainly would start your spiritual quest!
Yay for YOU!

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 153 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by ayar415

I can also see things very vividly with my eyes closed in a lucid dream during sleep. Would you agree that your "seeing your body from afar" was a similar kind of seeing?

While I readily agree that seeing one's body from afar could easily happen in the realm of imagination in a lucid dream, the totality of my NDE also included seeing my brother and sister down the hallway as well as other things beyond the realm of the 5 senses. While you could understandably and justifiably question "seeing your body from afar" as being part of a lucid dream, the verifiable sighting of my brother and sister down the hallway (and being able to correctly indicate what they were wearing) suggests something far more than a lucid dream(IMHO).

[Molearner]

Sometimes in the background one can almost hear people praying…..”please dear God don’t let this be spiritual….”

Any challenge to what we might hold to be true will be met with fear and skepticism…….

[ayar415]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 153 EXCERPT:
While you could understandably and justifiably question "seeing your body from afar" as being part of a lucid dream, the verifiable sighting of my brother and sister down the hallway (and being able to correctly indicate what they were wearing) suggests something far more than a lucid dream(IMHO).

No, I am not on a campaign to invalidate your experiences as nothing more than a hallucination. It would be disrespectful on my part. We are not debating or arguing. This is a discussion, a dialogue to investigate Molearner's assertion, the concept of gnosis: something beyond the realm of the 5 senses. He is on trial, not you.

As Krishnamurti would say, let's inquire together, step by step. No agreeing or rejecting what you and I are putting forth for discussion. We begin in a spirit of cooperation, together, to find out the truth about the realm of the 5 senses.

As you pointed out in post #126, a Krishnamurti-oriented "dialogue" session you attended went nowhere after 2 1/2 hours and you left. You said such explorations would need someone (such as Krishnamurti) who knows (gnosis) to prevent aimless rambling into intellectual spheres. We have more than one person in this forum who knows. There is Molearner, who was the first to point out in #72 that there is such a thing as gnosis - which is linked to the spirit and not of the realm of the intellect and the 5 senses. Then there are django, sky123, sentient, ewwerrin, and you.

It would be good to find out the truth about the realm of the intellect and the 5 senses. According to Molearner, it's all rational, a matter of episteme and science. Let's find out if that "seeing your body from afar" was outside this realm.

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by ayar415

It would be good to find out the truth about the realm of the intellect and the 5 senses. According to Molearner, it's all rational, a matter of episteme and science.

Ayar415,

We call this an impasse. If we understand you correctly you do not believe in the spirit yet you wish for us to prove the Spirit using rationale. That cannot be done. We can testify of the spirit as would mystics….but that is the limit. It can only be personally verified. All the things that work for science have no application here. God in his fullness is unknowable. Deut. 29:29……”The secret things belong to the Lord our God but the things revealed belong to us…”

I must refrain from further postings….

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 157 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by ayar415

It would be good to find out the truth about the realm of the intellect and the 5 senses.
Let's find out if that "seeing your body from afar" was outside this realm.

More importantly, as in the given example, I would actually prefer to focus on the experience of seeing my brother and sister down the hallway (among other things that need not be mentioned to complicate this discussion) and accurately describing what they were wearing despite the fact that they never entered the room where my body was laying and "seen from afar".

That is specifically why I included that point in my post as that "seeing from afar" was clearly NOT within the realm of the 5 senses and I don't see how that can be attributed to a lucid dream.

How do you wish to proceed on that particular point?

It should be obvious (at least to me) that focusing on "seeing my body from afar" will most likely lead nowhere as in that Krishnamurti dialogue meeting (without Krishnamurti of course) that I mentioned previously. Let us investigate this particular point or drop this "going nowhere" discussion.

[ayar415]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Ayar415,
We call this an impasse. If we understand you correctly you do not believe in the spirit yet you wish for us to prove the Spirit using rationale. That cannot be done. We can testify of the spirit as would mystics….but that is the limit. It can only be personally verified. All the things that work for science have no application here.

Testify of the spirit as would mystics? What kind of testimony is that? If it can be personally verified, then it can be universally verified also. After all, you are human and so am I, as well as, every mother's son and daughter and everybody else in between.

Science and spirituality are a false dichotomy. There is only the human mind. I am that. You may posit that it has special powers that you - and the mystic - have harnessed to access the spiritual realm where the intellect cannot go. I don't reject that (something you are accusing me of) and am open to what you and others who believe in "gnosis" have to say.

You are not insinuating that I don't have the privilege of gnosis to enter that inner circle of "secret things" belonging to the Lord our God, are you?