Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #381  
Old 21-01-2021, 09:08 AM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
Master
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2,301
  MikeS80's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
The reason is to identify with the Ineffable. It's a shift in identification from the effable (mind-body) to the Ineffable (Consciousness). From the mortal to the Divine. From that which is born and dies to That which is unborn and undying. From that which is ever changing to That which is unchanging.

Tat Twam Asi (That Thou Art)

https://www.shantisadan.org/book-con...that-thou-art/

This verse is a commentary on the famous dictum ‘That Thou Art’, which is the foundation of Vedanta. The word ‘Thou’ does not here mean the mind, but the immutable consciousness which is beyond change. That which changes is perishable because it exists and functions in time and space. The changeless entity is the infinite, imperishable Self which is the witness of all the changes of the mind and the body, and the word ‘Thou’ in the great sentence (mahavakya) under consideration refers to that consciousness.
Consciousness is everything and everything is consciousness because that is what consciousness is conscious of in the first place.This is the only way how everything is consciousness and vice versa.

There would be no duality, the changing, the effable etc in the first place, if consciousness was not conscious of them. Consciousness will always be conscious of them no matter how much you try to ignore, dismiss and negate them, with your consciousness that is naturally conscious of them. Consciousness creates/causes duality, the changing, the effable because consciousness is conscious of duality, changing, the effable and etc, and the point of consciousness is to be conscious of duality, the changing, the effable, etc.

Saying consciousness is unchanging is not 100% true for most people. If consciousness was unchanging, everyone will be perceiving/be conscious of the universe, god, religion, spirituality etc etc the same exact way. This is obviously not the case because people's personal beliefs and the lack thereof, conditioning etc effects how people perceive, thus are conscious of the universe, god, Self, religion, spirituality etc etc.

The unchanging consciousness point of view/perception is from an already enlightened unconditioned guru, teacher, sage etc etc. In order for one to reach this unchanging consciousness point of view/perception, one must learn the basics and start from the beginning of learning about/knowing thyself. One can not simply skip, ignore, dismiss and negate the ego, mind, body, individuality, etc etc in the process because learning about and knowing them is part of the process.

How can one learn about, and know his/her ego, mind, body, inividuality, etc etc, when he/she skips, ignores, dismisses and negates them? He/she can't, it is impossible! It is also impossible for one to put into words, using language what he/she skips, ignores, dismisses and negates. Using language/words is not the problem, skipping, ignoring, dismissing and negating is the problem and language becomes an excuse/scapegoat.

No single thing like consciousness is brahman as a whole. All things, including consciousness are relative, not absolute to brahman. Everything is (relative to) brahman, thus brahman is all there is.

By the way, The effable and the Ineffable is more division and separation of the one/brahman. I can see it, if you differentiate, but not separate the effable and the Ineffable, and consciousness to everything else, but you do not do that, you separate and divide everything that is relative to brahman. I do not know what school of spiritual philosophy that is, but it sure is not pure unadulterated Advaita Philosophy. I am sure you mix Advaita Philosophy with some other spiritual philosophies that resonate with you.

Advaita Philosophy is brahman/non-duality is all there is/exists. There is no such thing as duality because duality is also brahman. Brahman is the cause and the effect of duality, ego, maya, mind, body etc etc.

Edit: I will like to add to my above post that consciousness is not (only) conscious of oneness/wholeness, but is relative to oneness/wholeness!
__________________
"Cosmos is perfect order, the sum total of everything"
Reply With Quote
  #382  
Old 21-01-2021, 10:17 AM
JustASimpleGuy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
Consciousness is everything and everything is consciousness because that is what consciousness is conscious of in the first place.This is the only way how everything is consciousness and vice versa.

There would be no duality, the changing, the effable etc in the first place, if consciousness was not conscious of them. Consciousness will always be conscious of them no matter how much you try to ignore, dismiss and negate them, with your consciousness that is naturally conscious of them. Consciousness creates/causes duality, the changing, the effable because consciousness is conscious of duality, changing, the effable and etc, and the point of consciousness is to be conscious of duality, the changing, the effable, etc.

Saying consciousness is unchanging is not 100% true for most people. If consciousness was unchanging, everyone will be perceiving/be conscious of the universe, god, religion, spirituality etc etc the same exact way. This is obviously not the case because people's personal beliefs and the lack thereof, conditioning etc effects how people perceive, thus are conscious of the universe, god, Self, religion, spirituality etc etc.

The unchanging consciousness point of view/perception is from an already enlightened unconditioned guru, teacher, sage etc etc. In order for one to reach this unchanging consciousness point of view/perception, one must learn the basics and start from the beginning of learning about/knowing thyself. One can not simply skip, ignore, dismiss and negate the ego, mind, body, individuality, etc etc in the process because learning about and knowing them is part of the process.

How can one learn about, and know his/her ego, mind, body, inividuality, etc etc, when he/she skips, ignores, dismisses and negates them? He/she can't, it is impossible! It is also impossible for one to put into words, using language what he/she skips, ignores, dismisses and negates. Using language/words is not the problem, skipping, ignoring, dismissing and negating is the problem and language becomes an excuse/scapegoat.

No single thing like consciousness is brahman as a whole. All things, including consciousness are relative, not absolute to brahman. Everything is (relative to) brahman, thus brahman is all there is.

By the way, The effable and the Ineffable is more division and separation of the one/brahman. I can see it, if you differentiate, but not separate the effable and the Ineffable, and consciousness to everything else, but you do not do that, you separate and divide everything that is relative to brahman. I do not know what school of spiritual philosophy that is, but it sure is not pure unadulterated Advaita Philosophy. I am sure you mix Advaita Philosophy with some other spiritual philosophies that resonate with you.

Advaita Philosophy is brahman/non-duality is all there is/exists. There is no such thing as duality because duality is also brahman. Brahman is the cause and the effect of duality, ego, maya, mind, body etc etc.

Edit: I will like to add to my above post that consciousness is not (only) conscious of oneness/wholeness, but is relative to oneness/wholeness!

You're superimposing mind on Consciousness. Mind changes, not Consciousness. This is the entire purpose of Self-inquiry using Neti Neti. To attain that level of discernment through deep meditative inquiry. As I've explained before it's a two-step process and in essence simple.

Step 1 - Negate everything that is a thing, and that includes subtle things like thought by inquiring into "Who Am I?". At the very end question, inquirer and even the "I" thought are no more. All one is left with is No Thing, and that would be Consciousness.

Step 2 - Realize everything that was negated was never apart from Consciousness. Everything that was negated was an object of and within Consciousness, the ultimate Subject. Objects change, not Subject.

It's not an intellectual exercise but one of direct experience. One cannot think one's way to that level of realization. It grabs us, we do not grab It.
Reply With Quote
  #383  
Old 21-01-2021, 01:33 PM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
Master
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2,301
  MikeS80's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
You're superimposing mind on Consciousness. Mind changes, not Consciousness. This is the entire purpose of Self-inquiry using Neti Neti. To attain that level of discernment through deep meditative inquiry. As I've explained before it's a two-step process and in essence simple.

Step 1 - Negate everything that is a thing, and that includes subtle things like thought by inquiring into "Who Am I?". At the very end question, inquirer and even the "I" thought are no more. All one is left with is No Thing, and that would be Consciousness.

Step 2 - Realize everything that was negated was never apart from Consciousness. Everything that was negated was an object of and within Consciousness, the ultimate Subject. Objects change, not Subject.

It's not an intellectual exercise but one of direct experience. One cannot think one's way to that level of realization. It grabs us, we do not grab It.
Well, consciousness is a mental concept, idea, image and belief you hold in your mind, which makes consciousness a thing based on you experiencing being conscious, so in order for you to do your Step 1 above, you will have to negate the mental concept, idea, image and belief of consciousness you have, and of you experiencing being conscious.

As I said, start with the basics that all the thoughts, beliefs, concepts and images etc you have inside your head (about consciousness, oneness, duality and non-duality etc etc) are all products of your personal individual mind self/Self.
__________________
"Cosmos is perfect order, the sum total of everything"
Reply With Quote
  #384  
Old 21-01-2021, 01:57 PM
JustASimpleGuy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
Well, consciousness is a mental concept, idea, image and belief you hold in your mind, which makes consciousness a thing based on you experiencing being conscious, so in order for you to do your Step 1 above, you will have to negate the mental concept, idea, image and belief of consciousness you have, and of you experiencing being conscious.

As I said, start with the basics that all the thoughts, beliefs, concepts and images etc you have inside your head (about consciousness, oneness, duality and non-duality etc etc) are all products of your personal individual mind self/Self.

That is Step 1, however it's not an intellectual exercise. Intellect cannot get beyond intellect. What's beyond reveals Itself but in order for that reveal mind has to be quiescent. I can see three ways to achieve that but there are others I can't speak to as I've not fully investigated them. Of these three I understand 1 & 2 intellectually and 3 experientially.

1 - Vedantic Self-inquiry via Neti Neti
2 - Samadhi via Patanjili's Yoga Sutras
3 - Do nothing meditation

All three dissolve the ego-self and Self shines forth like a blazing Sun. It reveals Itself.
Reply With Quote
  #385  
Old 21-01-2021, 03:41 PM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
Master
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2,301
  MikeS80's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
That is Step 1, however it's not an intellectual exercise. Intellect cannot get beyond intellect. What's beyond reveals Itself but in order for that reveal mind has to be quiescent. I can see three ways to achieve that but there are others I can't speak to as I've not fully investigated them. Of these three I understand 1 & 2 intellectually and 3 experientially.

1 - Vedantic Self-inquiry via Neti Neti
2 - Samadhi via Patanjili's Yoga Sutras
3 - Do nothing meditation

All three dissolve the ego-self and Self shines forth like a blazing Sun. It reveals Itself.
Knowing thyself/self realization, which includes knowing where your beliefs, thoughts, fear and etc come from and how and why, by being conscious of them has nothing to do with the intellect, thus is a false projection.

Sure, you may do #3 during your short meditation/self hypnosis sessions, It is obvious that you do not do #3 24/7/365. How often do you do it in a 24 hour period? 1 or 2 hours, more or less? When you are not doing #3 in your normal day to day life, you as an individual have your own personal beliefs, likes, dislikes, ideas, concepts and images etc etc inside your head/mind.

Since all the beliefs, concepts and images you have in your head, are in your mind, none of them are beyond your mind, this includes brahman, consciousness, non-duality etc etc. Again, this has nothing to do with the ego or intellect, it is a simple observation by being conscious/aware of it.
__________________
"Cosmos is perfect order, the sum total of everything"
Reply With Quote
  #386  
Old 21-01-2021, 05:53 PM
JustASimpleGuy
Posts: n/a
 
From my perspective...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
Knowing thyself/self realization, which includes knowing where your beliefs, thoughts, fear and etc come from and how and why, by being conscious of them has nothing to do with the intellect, thus is a false projection.
Irrelevant. Self-realization is realizing one's true nature isn't mind-body but Consciousness. That being the case the doings of one mind-body out of a potential infinity of mind-bodies if we consider a multiverse doesn't even come into the picture when it comes to Self-realization.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
Sure, you may do #3 during your short meditation/self hypnosis sessions, It is obvious that you do not do #3 24/7/365. How often do you do it in a 24 hour period? 1 or 2 hours, more or less? When you are not doing #3 in your normal day to day life, you as an individual have your own personal beliefs, likes, dislikes, ideas, concepts and images etc etc inside your head/mind.
The practice is just a means to an end, the end being Self-realization. Once realized it cannot be unrealized. That very same "space" in deep meditation is right here, right now. I'm resting in it as I type this post. I've mentioned elsewhere that throughout the day and whenever I remember I engage the Karma Yoga practice of Work as Witness, where I'm not the doer of action, physical or mental, but its Witness. As time goes by I find myself in that "space" more and more often and eventually with enough diligence it will no longer be a practice but a state of being. That "space" of Witnessing Work is the exact same "space" of deep meditation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
Since all the beliefs, concepts and images you have in your head, are in your mind, none of them are beyond your mind, this includes brahman, consciousness, non-duality etc etc. Again, this has nothing to do with the ego or intellect, it is a simple observation by being conscious/aware of it.
It's not a belief, concept or image. it's Being.

Anyway that's why I practice and that includes Raja Yoga (meditation), Karma Yoga (Work as Witness) and Jnana Yoga (knowledge). It's a process of marinating in what I realized as much and as often as possible with the intention of solidifying it until it is a 24x7 effortless state of being. In other words Enlightenment. Will I get there in this lifetime? Doesn't matter as I have all of eternity.

By the way I consider participating in this venue as spiritual practice, both Karma and Jnana Yogas. Also much of my time spent here I'm multi-tasking, watching some video or other from one of my favorite swamis. I spiritualize as much of life as I can, the goal being 100%.

Concerning that "space", the Witness... https://youtu.be/JGKrAEJ-DbQ?t=29

It's not about knowing the contents of mind or the contents of thoughts. It's about knowing the nature of mind and thoughts and that is they are transient appearances in the ever-present and unchanging field of Awareness.

Last edited by JustASimpleGuy : 21-01-2021 at 06:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #387  
Old 21-01-2021, 08:13 PM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
Master
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2,301
  MikeS80's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Irrelevant. Self-realization is realizing one's true nature isn't mind-body but Consciousness. That being the case the doings of one mind-body out of a potential infinity of mind-bodies if we consider a multiverse doesn't even come into the picture when it comes to Self-realization.

The practice is just a means to an end, the end being Self-realization. Once realized it cannot be unrealized. That very same "space" in deep meditation is right here, right now. I'm resting in it as I type this post. I've mentioned elsewhere that throughout the day and whenever I remember I engage the Karma Yoga practice of Work as Witness, where I'm not the doer of action, physical or mental, but its Witness. As time goes by I find myself in that "space" more and more often and eventually with enough diligence it will no longer be a practice but a state of being. That "space" of Witnessing Work is the exact same "space" of deep meditation.


It's not a belief, concept or image. it's Being.

Anyway that's why I practice and that includes Raja Yoga (meditation), Karma Yoga (Work as Witness) and Jnana Yoga (knowledge). It's a process of marinating in what I realized as much and as often as possible with the intention of solidifying it until it is a 24x7 effortless state of being. In other words Enlightenment. Will I get there in this lifetime? Doesn't matter as I have all of eternity.

By the way I consider participating in this venue as spiritual practice, both Karma and Jnana Yogas. Also much of my time spent here I'm multi-tasking, watching some video or other from one of my favorite swamis. I spiritualize as much of life as I can, the goal being 100%.

Concerning that "space", the Witness... https://youtu.be/JGKrAEJ-DbQ?t=29

It's not about knowing the contents of mind or the contents of thoughts. It's about knowing the nature of mind and thoughts and that is they are transient appearances in the ever-present and unchanging field of Awareness.
It is more relevant than you THINK. Yes, it is being, but did the concept, idea, belief, and image inside your head, (which you learned/heard from someone else) of "my true nature isn't mind-body but Consciousness", led you to that being, or did it just pop into your head, one day, out of the blue?
__________________
"Cosmos is perfect order, the sum total of everything"
Reply With Quote
  #388  
Old 22-01-2021, 12:42 PM
JustASimpleGuy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
It is more relevant than you THINK. Yes, it is being, but did the concept, idea, belief, and image inside your head, (which you learned/heard from someone else) of "my true nature isn't mind-body but Consciousness", led you to that being, or did it just pop into your head, one day, out of the blue?

I don't know what to tell you that I haven't already so I invite you to listen to this 24 minute segment from Swami Sarvapriyananda on brain, mind, ego and consciousness.

0:36​ - Difference between the ego and the witness. Is consciousness a creation of the brain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFRp9FYqQDw&t=36s

He also briefly talks about "Two Steps to the Not-Two" in relation to this.
Reply With Quote
  #389  
Old 22-01-2021, 02:05 PM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
Master
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2,301
  MikeS80's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
I don't know what to tell you that I haven't already so I invite you to listen to this 24 minute segment from Swami Sarvapriyananda on brain, mind, ego and consciousness.

0:36​ - Difference between the ego and the witness. Is consciousness a creation of the brain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFRp9FYqQDw&t=36s

He also briefly talks about "Two Steps to the Not-Two" in relation to this.
Does the witness ignore, dismiss, disregard, and judge the ego, mind, body, thoughts and beliefs? Nope, the witness is just conscious of the mind, body, ego, thoughts and beliefs etc etc. By judge, I mean liking or disliking this or that and and thinking this is good/positive or bad/negative, discerning with the intellect in addition to direct experiencing what is truth or proper and what is not truth or improper is not judging.

All spiritual mental concepts, ideas, images are of the mind and create beliefs, biases (likes and dislikes and good and bad). This is the basics where one needs to start and grow and evolve from there.

Truth is concrete, objective and written in stone. Truth is not at all subjective/imagination. You want truth/reality to be subjective/imagination, because the subjective/imagination is what you like, for whatever reasons and benefits, and resonates with you. Nothing resonates with the witness and the witness does not like or dislike this or that. The witness is just conscious/just observes.

Again, I am not talking to the Swami anybody whom is or is not inside your head, I am talking to the Justasimpleguy whom is inside your head.

I know you do not answer the questions I ask you because you (and I) know you will not like the answers to them and/or the answers do not resonate with your so called 'consciousness' beliefs and ego. This is the reason why I keep asking you questions. Your Bruce Lee quote in your signature says it all.
__________________
"Cosmos is perfect order, the sum total of everything"
Reply With Quote
  #390  
Old 23-01-2021, 11:15 PM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
Master
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6,385
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Step 1 - Negate everything that is a thing, and that includes subtle things like thought by inquiring into "Who Am I?". At the very end question, inquirer and even the "I" thought are no more. All one is left with is No Thing, and that would be Consciousness.

Step 2 - Realize everything that was negated was never apart from Consciousness. Everything that was negated was an object of and within Consciousness, the ultimate Subject. Objects change, not Subject.

It's not an intellectual exercise but one of direct experience. One cannot think one's way to that level of realization. It grabs us, we do not grab It.

and yet by merely following that path, you negate the following of that path.

the only way to attain the ideal perhaps being in the end to let go of the ideal entirely.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums