Can consciousness be nondual?

[Ewwerrin]

And if so, how can it be nondual?

Namaste = I am you and you are me. those are two. me and you.

I am aware, of something. Awareness and something. those are two aswell.

I am aware of... Object and subject. Those are two aswell.

Beingness without object/subject = non-consciousness?

Or can consciousness be nondual? and if so, how?

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ Ewwerrin ~ Language is dualistic and the thoughts we think are in differentiated awareness, as you say, requiring a subject and an object.

To recognise singularity evidently mind must be dropped. We actually do this all the time but in stupor, in trance. The dreamless state of sleep is an example but other than feeling rested, we bring back nothing to the waking state because attention has shifted from undifferentiated to differentiated awareness.

Meditation silences thought or at least slows it down enough to enable us to glimpse by feeling, deeper realities which were hitherto veiled. So, a shift but as yet in duality. This goes on and the manner in which truth is seen changes. What is happening is that we are surrendering, identity is receding, there is no doer and yet the doing is being done.

Our orientation shifts further from a feeling of separateness to interconnectedness. We see that we all are being breathed by one breath, call it Holy Spirit, God, kundalini, Chi or whatever. Labels don’t matter now and we have seen that analysis is paralysis ~ we’ve dropped mind, remember?

How the transition from interconnectedness (where we are here and everything else is also out there, though connected) to oneness takes place is graced by profound experiences which leaves no room for doubt (doubt again being a function of mind). It can happen in a variety of ways, essentially involving an expansion of the sphere of our active awareness (awareness, not thought) wherein we are not in the universe but rather the universe is within ‘me’. So, who is this ‘me’ we allude to?

Identity assigns ownership to physical, emotional and mental attributes. But then, our innate aliveness, what many call the screen of awareness, that is a constant, upon which impressions are formed only to disappear with time. Our attributes are allowed to exist on this screen of unchanging awareness. Mathematically, identity is a subset of this awareness, which is why we cannot know what it is although it is always there, since we are it.

So, first step, thought goes. Second step, identity goes. Then, that that remains is the true Self, a singularity, alive, aglow, vibrant, peaceful, complete, eternal, free from attributes but yet requiring nothing to be done since there is no lack in the true sense.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Can consciousness be nondual?

The definition of the word dual = consisting of two parts, elements, or aspects.

What are the two parts, elements, or aspects of consciousness? I'm not sure what the duality consciousness belief is about.

Consciousness is one in my opinion, the source which contains all awareness. I think of consciousness as individual "atom like" energy awareness's. Like "souls" to use a common word. Each soul or "atom" of conscious awareness is a point of perception. In our case, we are merged with a human body at the moment so we are perceiving through that.

But then expanding my belief a little bit, even though we are individual as a point of perception, an energy "atom" of awareness, we have a source and each atom is connected to the whole or source. The source of conscious awareness. If anything, consciousness is made up of trillions and trillions of awareness "atoms" not two. Our perspective is as one as we are not aware of our true identity as we are merged with a physical form and it's brain and mind.

I will try to answer your ideas:

"those are two. me and you."

Yes I would say that is obvious. We are all individual points of perception or awareness or consciousness. An individual point is one, not two. I would still say consciousness is infinite as the collective or source, but then our perspective is as one as we are not currently aware of the whole from our perspective.

"I am aware, of something. Awareness and something. those are two as well."

Yes but that does not mean I am (consciousness) is divided.

"I am aware of... Object and subject. Those are two as well."

Yes there is me and that. I am aware of that. How does that make me, the one looking, the consciousness, two or divided? I am not that! It's not me! It is not consciousness. Consciousness is self aware. If I am looking at a pencil, that pencil is not me. It is not a part of me. Just because I am aware of something else does not mean I am divided.

"Beingness without object/subject = non-consciousness?"

I think people misunderstand that common phrase. The masters in my opinion are talking about mental conceptual separation. We can be without an identification with the body mind. That's the meaning of "transcending" in my opinion. It is there as it always is, but our vantage point of perspective changes. It goes from being seen as "ourselves" to us being aware it is not us. It changes as reality to non-reality. It changes as affecting to not affecting. (I am talking about the thought stream from the body mind.)

[Maisy]

I think the concept of duality from spiritual sources is about one specific thing or subject. There are two basic categories of how we can "be."

#1. We are unaware of our true nature. (This means we identify with our ego as self.)

#2. We are aware of our true nature. (This means we don't identify with our ego as self.)

If we are unaware of our true nature, we have a dual nature, soul and ego basically. This is what I think being dualistic means.

If we are aware of our true nature, we are aware of what is not us (ego) and therefore are no longer dual. We are aware it is not us, aware of it as a non-self, therefore our perspective as "being" becomes singular or non-dual.

The idea that we "become one with everything" is also misunderstood in my opinion. But that's a whole other topic. Enlightenment or transcendence does not make us aware of less, it makes us aware of more in my opinion. We see the true nature of things. We see or experience directly and not through the filter of ego.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Beingness without object/subject

I posted about the internal thought stream but I will make some comments about object/subject as it relates to external things.

I'll just use this well known example from Zen Buddhism.

“Before I sought enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers. While I sought enlightenment, the mountains were not mountains and the rivers were not rivers. After I reached satori, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.”

What changed? The sentences are the same before enlightenment and after enlightenment. What is the point of these quotes from Zen? My opinion. The change was before enlightenment the self included the ego, after enlightenment it did not.

After enlightenment the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers. We don't become crazy or insane or lose touch with reality. Like I said before, we are aware of more, not less. But we are aware our ego is not us! Which means our experience of the mountain and river completely change. Things like like and don't like, boredom or excitement, ego based opinions, beliefs, are gone as a filter between me and my experience or perception.

I no longer experience the mountain or river though a filter of conceptual ego based interpretation. It is no longer servicing an ego's demands and expectations. What it is as experience cannot be put into words as words are symbolic conceptual forms. A word, an idea, a belief, a description is never the actual thing, these are all mental images of the thing. An enlightened being is free of all mental images, free in the sense of non-identification as one has no control over what the brain produces. But with the attention off of the thought stream, the brain slows or stops making thoughts.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

So, first step, thought goes. Second step, identity goes. Then, that that remains is the true Self, a singularity,

That's kind of what I was saying. Without identification with the false self or ego, we know ourselves as a singularity. No longer as awareness and ego combined. We go from being dualistic, a combo of ego and soul, to just being soul or consciousness or whatever word one wants to use to represent the true non-dual state of awareness.

I think people would be confused by the phrase "identity goes" but I know what you mean. I would say we experience or manifest or become our true identity. The false identity goes for sure but then it was a weird combo of ego which was never us in the first place. It was just stuff we entertained as self.

[Guillaume]

Originally Posted by Maisy

I no longer experience the mountain or river though a filter of conceptual ego based interpretation. It is no longer servicing an ego's demands and expectations. What it is as experience cannot be put into words as words are symbolic conceptual forms. A word, an idea, a belief, a description is never the actual thing, these are all mental images of the thing. An enlightened being is free of all mental images, free in the sense of non-identification as one has no control over what the brain produces. But with the attention off of the thought stream, the brain slows or stops making thoughts.

Ow, it took me a while to understand where you were, I think I got it.

I think you are trying to grasp something in the domain of the experience with the intellect. All what you wrote is true, after enlightenment / awakening, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.
However at that point you should be able to connect with trees or birds, or even "worse", you should realize that your life experience depends on yourself, but also on the trees and the birds around. And everyone, every living being around.

It's just a matter of focus then, but if you see through your consciousness, there is no separation, no split possible, you "receive" / experience things that originate from you (quite minimally because you should have reduced your ego / own imprint on what you experience), but also from every other being and life around.

Many people in spirituality stop at the stage "there is no mountain or rivers" because they want to attract to themselves a specific experience.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

@ Ewwerrin ~ Language is dualistic...
...lack in the true sense.

Wow that is beautiful, thanks for sharing all that.

I so hope I can let go of identity or first thought, to become one with unchanging awareness. The whole universe inside of me. Feeling so free! This is such a high delightful state. I can only want to meditate more now.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Maisy

The definition of...
...stream from the body mind.)

wow you have such a nice deep perspective on this. Thanks for elaborating on all of that.

I like the idea that we're all indivuated consciousness and therefor all equally one.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Maisy

I think the concept...
...through the filter of ego.

oh my god, I so want to become aware of my true nature right now!

How please. How.