On Conception and Abortions --- From A Spiritist Perspective

Originally Posted by leadville

Guide and teacher Silver Guide said something like being born into this cold, dreary world is seen as a death by those who are watching from 'the world of the spirit'. But the premature return of a would-be incarnating spirit is hardly likely to be a situation of rejoicing unless it was the plan.

That would be at least a possibility in the case of twins, one intending to watch over the other and both having planned it before their births.

Hi... I have heard these words before. The bond of twins is always paramount. I was not told about my twin until I was about 12. .. And then it all made sense.

Originally Posted by Kioma

Who owns a woman’s body? Is it the woman? Is it her fetus? Is it Jesus? Is it our leaders?

Presupposing any other argument about abortion, this is the fundamental question, because it always turns right back around to control of a woman’s body — who owns it.

There's a word for someone owning another person’s body, a very old word that anyone in the light of today says they loathe, though it still goes on in the shadows, and sometimes still in broad daylight posing as something else; morality, righteousness, piety, justice — but they all are used to justify the very same disenfranchising of a woman from her own decisions about her own life and her own body, and here we are, still fighting over who owns a woman's body.

Sometimes the parents own the woman's body... I speak from experience...one which I would never wish to repeat ever... Bearing in mind the subject of the thread.

Originally Posted by Elfin

Sometimes the parents own the woman's body... I speak from experience...one which I would never wish to repeat ever... Bearing in mind the subject of the thread.

Parents may try to assert control over their child - 'child' no matter what the age of that individual! - but no single human has any right to control any other.

Originally Posted by leadville

Parents may try to assert control over their child - 'child' no matter what the age of that individual! - but no single human has any right to control any other.

Hi..and yes that is my theory. I have the most wonderful children. It was my role to protect them and guide them and put them on the right path, without ever "owning " them. They were never my "property" ... They were always their own selves. They have made me proud....I could have taught my own parents a thing or two!!!!!

Originally Posted by leadville

I do hope so because that was my intention.

Thank you x

Originally Posted by Elfin

Hi..and yes that is my theory. I have the most wonderful children. It was my role to protect them and guide them and put them on the right path, without ever "owning " them. They were never my "property" ... They were always their own selves. They have made me proud....I could have taught my own parents a thing or two!!!!!

You've written the exact thoughts I had after posting my earlier ones! Some parents give the impression they feel they own their children rather than being their carers, protectors and guides.

Shown also in controlling and manipulative behavior toward them, even or especially as the children grow older....

Originally Posted by Elfin

Hi... I have heard these words before. The bond of twins is always paramount. I was not told about my twin until I was about 12. .. And then it all made sense.

It has always been a particular interest of mine, that of the spiritual bond/link between twins, both living in this world or when one has passed over.

Originally Posted by leadville

It has always been a particular interest of mine, that of the spiritual bond/link between twins, both living in this world or when one has passed over.

Thank you... You are so lovely. My sister had always been with me. She always will be. Please feel free to ask me any questions you wish with regard to this either publicly or privately.

I feel that I need to speak out about "abortion". There are many reasons why a woman would have an "abortion", a word which I find so cold and heartless. But this is my story. I was a teenager in the 70's when I got pregnant. When I told the father of the child that I was expecting, he beat me to a pulp. I made "some" excuse to my parents and refused to disclose to my father who the boyfriend was as he would have killed him. This was only for beating me up. They did not know I was pregnant. When they found out nothing much was said except for 2 things. My father told me he had "washed his hands of me, I was no daughter of his".. my mother just said "I'll take you to the doctor's". It had been made clear to me that I would be out on the streets, no where to live , no money , and no hope. So we went to the doctor's where a test did confirm I was pregnant. Then a discussion occured between the doctor and my mother about "termination" . Not once was I asked my opinion. Not once was I asked "Do you want to keep your baby?".... Not once... The night before it happened I sat up all night in the garden stroking my tummy and telling my child what was about to happen and why. I cried all night long telling my baby over and over how sorry I was and how much I loved him..... And then it was all over. There was a woman in the next bed to me that must have been in her late 30,s that was "getting rid of the evidence" of an affair. I wanted to strangle her and say "don't even feel yourself worthy of talking to me"...After 21 years of crying , i had to try to move on. As I knew in my mind he was "an adult": now. And even now when I think of him, the guilt will not go away. He would be over 40 now. Please feel free to ask any questions...Elfin.

Originally Posted by leadville

...hypocrisy? Isn't that somewhat dismissive of individuals trying to make sincere points?

My apologies again Leadville. You're right, my post takes a very simplistic and generic view, and deviates on multiple issues.

You are a taskmaster, but within your right. Let me tie my points specifically to point 9 of the OP.

First of all I do not believe there are any 'laws' of God that can be transgressed. We are talking about GOD, not some local Constable. The universe INNATELY regulates what you can and cannot do - THAT is what the 'law' of God looks like. THAT is why there is evil and suffering in the world, because a LAW of God is 'Thou shalt have free will', and that's just the way it IS. There are consequences, but they are a matter of self-definition and evolution, NOT crime and punishment. THAT is what a 'law' of God looks like. God doesn't make 'laws' that you can flout willy-nilly and other people just suffer for it because someone decides not to follow the 'law'. All you have to do is look around you to compare what people tell you about 'God's law' and what actually happens. It is much deeper and more complex than that - but it IMPOSSIBLE to break a law of God. If there are certain things God does not want you to do, I don't think it's much of a stretch to think God has the power and authority to make sure you DON'T. It is written into the very fabric of existence - the universes and by extension yours.

Point 9 basically states that the PRIORITY is for the child. Well, what about the mother's 'experiencing the trials for which she IS to be the instrument? Why is it all of a sudden that is no longer important? If a woman wants an abortion, obviously she has a reason for thinking as she does. It may be a reason we agree is 'good', and it may not, but to just arbitrarily assume that the PRIORITY of the child supersedes that of the mother is a bit presumptuous, don't you agree?

One can imagine scenarios where that may be true - some expedient may have come up that actually makes the child's 'trials for which it is to be an instrument' of higher priority than the mothers - but even that is problematic. How does anybody not know that if that child is a female, and grows up and becomes pregnant, then her unborn child will be determined to have higher priority than the woman whose mother's body sovereignty was forcibly taken away because of the very same thing? Wouldn't that be a rather reactive and short-sighted way to run a universe?

So that's the point I was making above, either spirit has a plan, or it doesn't. If you believe spirit proceeds based on foreknowledge of what is to be done, then abortion is NOT a crime, as it too will be completely foreseeable - and if abortion is not foreseeable, then how could anything else be?

I'd love to discuss in more depth some more of your previous reply, and points 8, 10 and 11 of the OP as well, but I feel it best if I focus there for a start.