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  #181  
Old 14-03-2018, 10:27 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Originally Posted by Greenslade
The real paradox is is that while people are busting their chops to become 'Spiritually advanced' everything that can happen, is happening or will ever happen is happening because there is no time. So, while we're trying to advance Spiritually we're already there, but we've chosen to forget that so we can feel better about working on our Spiritual advancement.

How I look at it G.S. is that we are drawn to do this and that and in our own way and in our own time understand and learn from this and that.

It seems that you came full circle in a way where you now question why peeps bust there chops to become ' spiritually advanced' when there all ready there so to speak.

If everybody felt super duper in themselves to start with then the thought to spiritually advance themselves would never arise.

So in my eyes we can only go with the flow and with the urges to do this or that until there is no urge left .

On a psychological note peeps have the urge to work things out also, great philosophers have came and gone from this world leaving behind knowledge for others to integrate and carry on where they left off .

It seems to me that this is how the world goes round by what others do or don't do .

Why peeps do this and not that is just as important as the end result .


x daz x
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Last edited by God-Like : 14-03-2018 at 11:44 AM.
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  #182  
Old 14-03-2018, 11:38 AM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Well yes. I don't do bravado, I just tootle along anyway and just because I don't say too much it doesn't mean I don't know too much - or don't understand everything you've posted. I did enjoy your enthusiasm though, there was a nice energy dynamic that came through.

I came to that realisation a long time ago but now I'm a 'sit on the porch with a few cold beers' kinda guy, I let the younger Souls (yeah I know, no time) run around like kids in a play park, while they're running to stand still I'm standing still to run.


"Look mama I'm not reacting" - yes dear well done, now try again without the noise & bravado."

That was not aimed your way Greenslade - I always speak to the lurkers when in pleasant conversation with someone such as yourself.

Lately what I interpret to be western Buddhist converts or wibbly wobbly new age patchwork people seem to claim their badges by looking down on the rest.

I try to point out that repeating a holy text or guru alone does not equal enlightenment.

Posters such as yourself & moonglow break down statements made which may very well inform others instead of preaching from a book or coming from a place of self indoctrination.

That's to be commended in my personal view.

Often those not using the latest lingo are dismissed, those with a firmer tone admonished or belittled under the guise of "it moved me to comment".

Catsiquatl left his gloves in the ring due to that type of attitude - those proclaiming to spiritually " get it" but not share.

Its a form of hierarchy enforcement.


Nothing peaceful or enlightened about that from my perspective.

I always appreciate your input, it comes across as genuine & pondered.
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Now, as before - you criticise your own work."


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  #183  
Old 14-03-2018, 11:52 AM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade

The real paradox is is that while people are busting their chops to become 'Spiritually advanced' everything that can happen, is happening or will ever happen is happening because there is no time. So, while we're trying to advance Spiritually we're already there, but we've chosen to forget that so we can feel better about working on our Spiritual advancement.

Being Spiritual is a self-image just the same as anything else in the 'real world' and people identify with Spirituality and being Spiritual just the same as they identify with being a football fan. The only difference is that Spiritual consciousness is 'higher grade' and more important than any other. Allegedly.

It's all layers, as Raziel there points out.

But how much of any development - personal. Spiritual or any other - depends on you being you and me being me? If there was no you and no me we couldn't have this conversation, you wouldn't be able to see you because I'm not here to reflect you and there wouldn't be a you to reflect. The way things are gives us a good, solid feeling that you are you and I am me, and therefore we can interact. It's a process of individuation that's going on, not one of unity - we came from unity.

You can't run away from who and what you are, although many would rather not look at certain aspects.

In Spirituality, there being no time is a lovely concept and something to trot out when you want to sound Spiritual, yet still the conversations go to their being a concept of time. If there is no time then what happens to Spiritual development, karma, Past Lives????? Wrinkles?? Nobody has explained why I have wrinkles if there is no time.


The "there is only one true religion" marks have always puzzled me even as a child.

Building on what you have said above I saw the flawed logic in any "true religion" ideology simply because it's throwing everyone else under the bus.

The Normans or Tudors had no exposure to Islam or Buddhism - how were they ever going to follow such a religions rules without ever knowing about it?

What about the pre Christian Pagans - were they born to simply end up in the depths of hell?
Or why are extremists allowed to essentially blaspheme or to victimise the lost & vulnerable?

.


Personal journeys surely have to play a part, factor in to spirituality.

Self empowerment is often muddled with self confidence, which is a shame - yet another example of frequent misinterpretation.

It's a great example of why it's important to hunt & gather on the spiritual trail instead of merely staying still staring at over produced pages .

.

.
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Now, as before - you criticise your own work."


- Legacy Of Kain
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  #184  
Old 15-03-2018, 12:48 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Namaste Moonglow

The more I've spent time looking objectively at Spirituality and not waxing lyrical about it, the closer to psychology it becomes. At one time I was quite excited at being Spiritual, being on the forums and engaged in all this esoteric stuff but after a while that all died. I think the turning point was when I was building a website of all things to do, and this particular one was giving me problems. To understand the problem better I thought to myself 'What's in it for me?' I asked to same about Spirituality. I also couldn't figure out why any Spirit would choose to Live a 'useless' existence. If we chose our existence here as in Karmic Obligations/Life's Purpose and we were 'here to learn the lessons' then what of people who simply can't process Spirituality because of their genes? Does having 'Spirituality-capable' genes mean that some people are born more equal than others? Does that mean the people who are not Spiritual are doomed to purgatory for eternity?

Strangely enough, Self Actualisation is one of the 'cornerstones' of Spirituality and it's also top of Maslo's Hierarchy of Needs - and Spirituality also fulfils a few more. How much is 'raising your vibrations' and Spiritual development the same as Pavlov's Theory? I went into both of those while I was training the trainers, it was a part of their curriculum for understanding personal development.

The real paradox is is that while people are busting their chops to become 'Spiritually advanced' everything that can happen, is happening or will ever happen is happening because there is no time. So, while we're trying to advance Spiritually we're already there, but we've chosen to forget that so we can feel better about working on our Spiritual advancement.

Being Spiritual is a self-image just the same as anything else in the 'real world' and people identify with Spirituality and being Spiritual just the same as they identify with being a football fan. The only difference is that Spiritual consciousness is 'higher grade' and more important than any other. Allegedly.

It's all layers, as Raziel there points out.

But how much of any development - personal. Spiritual or any other - depends on you being you and me being me? If there was no you and no me we couldn't have this conversation, you wouldn't be able to see you because I'm not here to reflect you and there wouldn't be a you to reflect. The way things are gives us a good, solid feeling that you are you and I am me, and therefore we can interact. It's a process of individuation that's going on, not one of unity - we came from unity.

You can't run away from who and what you are, although many would rather not look at certain aspects.

In Spirituality, there being no time is a lovely concept and something to trot out when you want to sound Spiritual, yet still the conversations go to their being a concept of time. If there is no time then what happens to Spiritual development, karma, Past Lives????? Wrinkles?? Nobody has explained why I have wrinkles if there is no time.

Namaste Greenslade,

Suppose a way to look at is if it is created in ones mind, then can be subjective. For another seems to have another view point or may find similarities, but one has his/her own twist on it.

Who created what is viewed as "Spirituality" anyways? Humans did, didn't they?
Finding connection with that which is felt in its presence. The vibration/energy felt. The wondering and for some realization there is more then what is thought. Goes beyond just thinking about it, but living it, with it, of it. How to describe that which is beyond the words.

Much like you. I have a certain image of you that forms in my mind through the interactions here. Bu, I can wager that meeting you in the flesh would expand the outlook much greater. Yes sense a personality and energy with in the words, but sure there is much more to the man behind the words.

So, I see the spiritual side of us. It doesn't choose this one is better then that or ask what one believes. The true ( for lack of better word at present) Spirit embraces all, as I feel it. Maybe a concept to some, but do they feel what I do or you do?

What you have experienced, or anyone else for that matter is objective to the individuals. It was and is lived. To another subjective if not or not understood.

Can one observe the "ego"? Or what may relate to what it represents to that person? I don't feel it is a question in regards to the individual existing, but more into how one may or may not relate to life and/or Spirit, or anything else, and the individual him/her self.

It all seems to seep into the general consciousness. If so, then it exists and it is in some form or another. One can relate or not, but this does not make what is placed there null and void. Time included.

High/low are on the same scale and depends where one is at and may feel that seems to determine what one emits. If Spirit was so high that it required years and years of practice to attune to it, think many would not even have a concept of its presence, much less be aware enough to even notice something.

But that is just my outlook at present. If desired to be in touch with the divine, stop looking for it and take notice. As one sees it, feels it in what ever manner there it is reflecting back. If that's ego talking, I take it

It is as one creates to be for oneself. Yes Spirituality is just another identity if seen that way. But it is not all that has developed, I like the word Life. For that is what everyone is experiencing and developing with in.
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  #185  
Old 15-03-2018, 09:27 AM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raziel
The "there is only one true religion" marks have always puzzled me even as a child.

Building on what you have said above I saw the flawed logic in any "true religion" ideology simply because it's throwing everyone else under the bus.

The Normans or Tudors had no exposure to Islam or Buddhism - how were they ever going to follow such a religions rules without ever knowing about it?

What about the pre Christian Pagans - were they born to simply end up in the depths of hell?
Or why are extremists allowed to essentially blaspheme or to victimise the lost & vulnerable?

.


Personal journeys surely have to play a part, factor in to spirituality.

Self empowerment is often muddled with self confidence, which is a shame - yet another example of frequent misinterpretation.

It's a great example of why it's important to hunt & gather on the spiritual trail instead of merely staying still staring at over produced pages .

.

.
"God made man, man made religion, religion made God." Every religion was right for that culture at that time so what does today's religion and Spirituality say about the culture? Any belief system is founded upon what's in people's heads so we're talking about psychology first and foremost, because even the need for our beliefs to be validated is a deep-rooted psychological need, as is appraisal from our peer group. And our belief system is better than yours, so the so-called New Age Spirituality does the same thing as every other cult and belief system throughout history.

This is a Journey to Self, and Spirituality is merely the context and not the Journey itself.

Self empowered is often muddled with the mainstream definition of ego, the difference is very subtle.

Staring at over-produced pages is Spirituality to some, being with the people you model yourself on is a well-known technique towards becoming the embodiment of what is seen in them.
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  #186  
Old 15-03-2018, 09:45 AM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raziel
"Look mama I'm not reacting" - yes dear well done, now try again without the noise & bravado."

That was not aimed your way Greenslade - I always speak to the lurkers when in pleasant conversation with someone such as yourself.

Lately what I interpret to be western Buddhist converts or wibbly wobbly new age patchwork people seem to claim their badges by looking down on the rest.

I try to point out that repeating a holy text or guru alone does not equal enlightenment.

Posters such as yourself & moonglow break down statements made which may very well inform others instead of preaching from a book or coming from a place of self indoctrination.

That's to be commended in my personal view.

Often those not using the latest lingo are dismissed, those with a firmer tone admonished or belittled under the guise of "it moved me to comment".

Catsiquatl left his gloves in the ring due to that type of attitude - those proclaiming to spiritually " get it" but not share.

Its a form of hierarchy enforcement.


Nothing peaceful or enlightened about that from my perspective.

I always appreciate your input, it comes across as genuine & pondered.
Often we don't know who's watching from the wings so I don't try to talk to them specifically any more. People are welcome to just read and not contribute or do whatever they feel they need to do at the time. The Universe has its synchronicities so I don't need to think about them.

I find it interesting that there's so much humanity in Spirituality, so many people trying to hard to be so Spiritual but never realising where the real Spirituality is, but then that's all a part of the Journey. The Universe is just the way it is for its own reasons.

Moonglow and I are from a very different school, neither of us have any masks to maintain and little need of the labels so there's something very liberating with that. When you're not in with the in-crowd you can become a crowd of one, which makes things much more interesting - which is where you seem to be.

You remind me of me; raw, gritty and telling your own truth the way you see it and with no apologies. I have no regrets in doing that and if you come to anything close to the same space I hope you find it as 'worth it' as I do.
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  #187  
Old 15-03-2018, 05:03 PM
uloDoe Youn uloDoe Youn is offline
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When Ego hinders the spirit, and deafens the mind, it comes to the whole of conclusion, that the life we live in is a riddle of mine,
I hope you understand that whatever happends happends, but you have tHe Choice to give up on the lower crimes, those that abase the spirit, those that make you give some time, to conclude what you ultimately want, in a nother phrase when live begunT, Have Life and Have Liberty too, pursuit the forms of happyness, but dont give in to faulter too, Simply.
The test of time is to abolish the soul of its ego [driven Rights] and bring about a wholesome you, one that does not bash to form into the better OF Coming through. Pursuit virtue, and the manner of ego will go away 2

Strive for the better things in life and dont go into the abse of nature, even tho it be so alright to be in doing so, but if you pursuit the better things in life, then come enter out of that too.
Life Liberty of egosense is to master you.

Step through the motion of life i give. To the last of breath do breath. When settling down in what you achieve. Come to the Better of things, ego down and RE[_ive] the ways of the world is insane, give place to the common man who takes not forgranted the due bettering, just hold it close to the pier of your most upper damm insane, in another words. Cheerish the things that are good and abhold yourself from the things that are abasing Negative. Then You can enter the world and be a light, not for your own sake but the sake of the whole. Children and Peops come first, then as one who has abased ego, IT MAy Stop Hurts.

Testing 1... Two.... 1 Two... Help One Another, And i Help You
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  #188  
Old 16-03-2018, 09:08 AM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
Namaste Greenslade,

Suppose a way to look at is if it is created in ones mind, then can be subjective. For another seems to have another view point or may find similarities, but one has his/her own twist on it.

Who created what is viewed as "Spirituality" anyways? Humans did, didn't they?
Finding connection with that which is felt in its presence. The vibration/energy felt. The wondering and for some realization there is more then what is thought. Goes beyond just thinking about it, but living it, with it, of it. How to describe that which is beyond the words.

Much like you. I have a certain image of you that forms in my mind through the interactions here. Bu, I can wager that meeting you in the flesh would expand the outlook much greater. Yes sense a personality and energy with in the words, but sure there is much more to the man behind the words.

So, I see the spiritual side of us. It doesn't choose this one is better then that or ask what one believes. The true ( for lack of better word at present) Spirit embraces all, as I feel it. Maybe a concept to some, but do they feel what I do or you do?

What you have experienced, or anyone else for that matter is objective to the individuals. It was and is lived. To another subjective if not or not understood.

Can one observe the "ego"? Or what may relate to what it represents to that person? I don't feel it is a question in regards to the individual existing, but more into how one may or may not relate to life and/or Spirit, or anything else, and the individual him/her self.

It all seems to seep into the general consciousness. If so, then it exists and it is in some form or another. One can relate or not, but this does not make what is placed there null and void. Time included.

High/low are on the same scale and depends where one is at and may feel that seems to determine what one emits. If Spirit was so high that it required years and years of practice to attune to it, think many would not even have a concept of its presence, much less be aware enough to even notice something.

But that is just my outlook at present. If desired to be in touch with the divine, stop looking for it and take notice. As one sees it, feels it in what ever manner there it is reflecting back. If that's ego talking, I take it

It is as one creates to be for oneself. Yes Spirituality is just another identity if seen that way. But it is not all that has developed, I like the word Life. For that is what everyone is experiencing and developing with in.
Namaste Moonglow

I guess everyone does, that, they create an image of what a person is like in their mind's eye. I suppose it's easier to have a conversation with something a little more tangible than words on a screen, giving the mind something to latch onto. Being honest I've tried not to do that because there's always a jarring when the image and the person don't match. Often I talk to the Soul rather than to the person anyway, and a vision of Spirit/Soul is often only a construct of the mind. As you are 'closer to your Soul' than most the difference isn't quite so contrasting.

I learned many years ago that there is always something more, that every person has their own story to tell. Interestingly I met a guy who was pushing shopping carts in a supermarket, he'd been a well-respected brain surgeon but felt as though he'd been burned out and wanted a job that wasn't too taxing.

This is what I like about Gestalt Reality, it helps me to envisage things and put things into relationships instead of opposition and that makes sense of so much more. The main principle of Gestalt Reality is that the sum parts create something other than (not greater than) the whole. The 'Spiritual side', ego, body, mind....- are all 'individual' parts and when all those parts/aspects are taken in unison, together they create another individual 'entity'. Our ego is an 'entity' in its own right and is made up of various aspects - past experiences, knowledge, environment, perceptions, beliefs.... So you as a 'human entity' are all of your aspects put together like the clockwork of a watch. On top of that we have the Spiritual entity that comprises of the human - the Soul, Spirit, Past Life entities and whatever else.

I tried to figure out what my consciousness was one day, just for the sheer hell of it. What I didn't want was just some airy-fairy Spiritual definition, I wanted to experience it more fully and actually 'touch' it. The more I reached for it the further away it went, always a step in front. Every step brought the same question - "Is that what I am conscious of?"

Alan Watts says that we 'thingify' things and that's what's happening with ego. We make this big thing about how bad it is, how clever we are at transmuting it and killing it but we never look to the definitions and the reasons we use them and we never look at the dialogue we are having with ourselves. All so we can think we're Spiritual, and the irony is that thinking we're Spiritual is the very definition of 'ego'. 'Ego death' is an egoic illusion. Yeah I know, I shouldn't laugh but y'know, sometimes it helps and I just can't help acknowledge the irony of it all.

I guess that's why we need reflections, when we're looking 'out there' for the divine what we're really looking for is something to reflect back at ourselves because we can't see our own faces.

If we are Spiritual, human, have an ego, a mind.... any number of different aspects doesn't that mean we're quite a piece of kit?
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  #189  
Old 16-03-2018, 12:20 PM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
So in my eyes we can only go with the flow and with the urges to do this or that until there is no urge left .
Which is pretty much where I'm at now, and yes I'll admit that what we express is a reflection of what we have inside. There's an age-old 'something inside' that so far hasn't found resolution, even though the curiosity is that I've already expressed much the same thing as you've posted.

EDIT: The comment about paradox is taken out of context, I don't think there are paradoxes other than the ones which we create because we pitch 'this' against 'that'. It was meant more as a touch of sarcasm more than anything else. Often the term 'paradox' is used instead of 'dichotomy'.

Last edited by Greenslade : 16-03-2018 at 04:27 PM.
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  #190  
Old 17-03-2018, 01:42 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Namaste Moonglow

I guess everyone does, that, they create an image of what a person is like in their mind's eye. I suppose it's easier to have a conversation with something a little more tangible than words on a screen, giving the mind something to latch onto. Being honest I've tried not to do that because there's always a jarring when the image and the person don't match. Often I talk to the Soul rather than to the person anyway, and a vision of Spirit/Soul is often only a construct of the mind. As you are 'closer to your Soul' than most the difference isn't quite so contrasting.

I learned many years ago that there is always something more, that every person has their own story to tell. Interestingly I met a guy who was pushing shopping carts in a supermarket, he'd been a well-respected brain surgeon but felt as though he'd been burned out and wanted a job that wasn't too taxing.

This is what I like about Gestalt Reality, it helps me to envisage things and put things into relationships instead of opposition and that makes sense of so much more. The main principle of Gestalt Reality is that the sum parts create something other than (not greater than) the whole. The 'Spiritual side', ego, body, mind....- are all 'individual' parts and when all those parts/aspects are taken in unison, together they create another individual 'entity'. Our ego is an 'entity' in its own right and is made up of various aspects - past experiences, knowledge, environment, perceptions, beliefs.... So you as a 'human entity' are all of your aspects put together like the clockwork of a watch. On top of that we have the Spiritual entity that comprises of the human - the Soul, Spirit, Past Life entities and whatever else.

I tried to figure out what my consciousness was one day, just for the sheer hell of it. What I didn't want was just some airy-fairy Spiritual definition, I wanted to experience it more fully and actually 'touch' it. The more I reached for it the further away it went, always a step in front. Every step brought the same question - "Is that what I am conscious of?"

Alan Watts says that we 'thingify' things and that's what's happening with ego. We make this big thing about how bad it is, how clever we are at transmuting it and killing it but we never look to the definitions and the reasons we use them and we never look at the dialogue we are having with ourselves. All so we can think we're Spiritual, and the irony is that thinking we're Spiritual is the very definition of 'ego'. 'Ego death' is an egoic illusion. Yeah I know, I shouldn't laugh but y'know, sometimes it helps and I just can't help acknowledge the irony of it all.

I guess that's why we need reflections, when we're looking 'out there' for the divine what we're really looking for is something to reflect back at ourselves because we can't see our own faces.

If we are Spiritual, human, have an ego, a mind.... any number of different aspects doesn't that mean we're quite a piece of kit?

Namaste Greenslade,

Talking to the soul, I like that. For it seems some may be a little more open in this form of interaction. It is the energy and tone I pick up on mostly. Suppose this in its way is the soul emitting through.

Gestalt reality, the sum parts creating the whole, seems to the way I observe life. For what creates what is observe? The parts and noticing how they interlink and interact. May reach a point and think one is there and it's figured out, but there always seems to be more waiting to be noticed.

Looking at nature can see the interconnections and interactions in motion.

Looking at "ego" as self identity there does seem a contradiction in trying to kill it. For it seems this in itself takes on an identity, as you present.

Perhaps a misunderstanding of what the whole practice or identity thing is about.
For to me it is not so much about no self or ego, but seems to point to a non self. Meaning identity of self is temporary and changing, but in its essence it is the sum of all the lifetimes lived/experience and one being is this in its wholeness.

But for me have this life I am living at present and that is the focus. I know will kick off eventually and my soul will go off where it will. So this part of the journey forms into being with in the whole journey of soul. Adds to the story and consciousness.

But, don't feel it is a solo act. For the lives touched along the way and touch mine blend into being of the journey, adding to the story and the consciousness.
So in a way becomes selfless in its totality.

To make sense of it and create the stories there is the individual. With this comes an ego/self identity. As stated in other posts. To tell and live the stories recorded with in the consciousness with in oneself and with in what gets carried on.

We are quite the package, creation.

For some reason this thought comes to mind some just try too hard to be some thingy and most of the time it is an image or idea held onto. The one that don't just are being as he/she is and really don't give much thought about this.
Both being just the individual being at the moment.

Yes sometimes need a reflection to see oneself. Sometimes can just enjoy the light sparkling on the water or the clouds passing by. Showing the parts blending together in the wholeness of life doing its thing.
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