self-realization

[inavalan]

I read / heard people that are self-realized, and have no doubt they are and know "thee" truth.

I personally know people that talk to the Christian God on a regular basis, and have no doubt they do that.

There are such people in all religions, including atheism, scientism.

How do you know they're honest in their claims? How do you know they aren't delusional? If you are one of the above, how do you know you aren't delusional?

Is there any litmus test for not being delusional?

I surely have my beliefs, but I allow for the possibility that some of them are incorrect, and I am looking forward for corrections and more clarity. I can't imagine anybody being 100% sure they know "thee" truth.

It is also interesting that "thee" truth knowing claimants from each group have group specific behavior. If the bigotism and fanaticism of some of those are scary, the condescending attitude manifested with predilection in some groups like non-dualists (Westerners more than Easterners), atheists, scientists is ridiculous.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by inavalan

How do you know they're honest in their claims? How do you know they aren't delusional?
If you are one of the above, how do you know you aren't delusional?
Is there any litmus test for not being delusional?

This is my input.
YOU won't know. However, the person having the direct experience does know.

How do you yourself know you're not delusional ...because the Doors of Perception in the brain have been opened and you 'see'.
You 'see'...clearly for the first time....what really 'is'.
...
It reminds me of one of the children that died and 'came back'
in the hospital ...and talked about
being someplace else, when asked where...he said in a different world..."You know, the real world."
He knew where he had been was more real than 'here'.
Ref Raymond Moody, MD's first book.

Is there a litmus test for 'others' to know it's true or delusional...no.
I've seen a UFO so close and slow and silent I was motionless watching it over the tree tops...do I know what I saw? Of course.
Can I even convince anyone else...Nope.

But, if a person doesn't have a clear sense if themselves, maybe has a mental illness, he could go bonkers...many have.
As they say - There is a fine line between the guy in an institution and a saint.
The nutty guy may think he's God or George Washington ...and he is committed.
The saint calmly takes it in and knows he is correct...we all are.

Ha, I can't imagine anyone that has exp'd ...'whatever you call it' ...'Reality' would be condescending!
It's the most exciting, joyous and humbling exp ever.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

This is my input.
YOU won't know. However, the person having the direct experience does know.
How do you yourself know you're not delusional ...because the Doors of Perception in the brain have been opened and you 'see'.

You wrote:

"However, the person having the direct experience does know"

What would be the difference vs. a hallucination, or a dream? It is just what one chooses to believe, more or less consciously. Such effects can be relatively easily obtained through hypnosis, and can involve any or all of the subject's physical senses (with drugs too).

People who had such revealing spiritual experiences come with different stories about "thee" truth. That means that all but one (if any) can be accurate, isn't it? So what about the others that also honestly believe that they "do know"?

As I wrote in my opening post, I personally know people who are absolutely sure they converse with God, who shows himself to them during prayer. They would pass any mental health test, but fervently believe in their experiences. They "do know".

Think also about all those honest mediums, that present a completely different picture than the self-realized non-dualists.

I believe that no one who is still here can 100% be sure of knowing "thee" truth, of having experienced it, or having had a glimpse of it.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by inavalan

You wrote:"However, the person having the direct experience does know
"What would be the difference vs. a hallucination, or a dream?

It is a ques I have never thought about.
I guess cuz I know a dream is a dream and never had an hallucination.
I don't have any comment on that.

On another forum an old woman, Mary Baker, lived in a trailer, was up to no good at 15 yrs old with a friend...ha...
they were running across a cotton field to a boys place in Arkansas.
When all of a sudden BOTH of them had a vision of a person (she later recognized as Jesus),
that stopped them and said stuff. (Wow!)

She considered this a life changing exp ...and she changed all her ways.
She was a one pointed focused person and I expect she has passed.

Was that an hallucination or a vision from another realm appearing here
for a reason? I would say a vision.

[Miss Hepburn]

As far as knowing thee truth...consider what I have written here before...
Picture God as a multi-faceted diamond. One may approach it from the bottom left and that facet reflects back a blue boy with a flute.
Another person looks at a facet on another side and sees a bearded robed man.
But these come from the same source.

The 5 blind men feeling an elephant for the 1st x...one comes back and describes it as being like a leathery rope.
Another like a rough flat huge thing...and so on...
So ALL of the Truth is probably not known by a living person; only parts...good deduction.


Rem - 2 sentences in quote boxes, rather than the whole long quote...as per the Admins.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

It is a ques I have never thought about.
I guess cuz I know a dream is a dream and never had an hallucination.
I don't have any comment on that.

On another forum an old woman, Mary Baker, lived in a trailer, was up to no good at 15 yrs old with a friend...ha...
they were running across a cotton field to a boys place in Arkansas.
When all of a sudden BOTH of them had a vision of a person (she later recognized as Jesus),
that stopped them and said stuff. (Wow!)

She considered this a life changing exp ...and she changed all her ways.
She was a one pointed focused person and I expect she has passed.

Was that an hallucination or a vision from another realm appearing here
for a reason? I would say a vision.

Exactly. This is, in my opinion, as valid as any non-dual realization, and less pretentious.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

As far as knowing thee truth...consider what I have written here before...
Picture God as a multi-faceted diamond. One may approach it from the bottom left and that facet reflects back a blue boy with a flute.
Another person looks at a facet on another side and sees a bearded robed man.
But these come from the same source.

The multifaceted diamond / God model isn't congruent with the non-dualist self-realization.

Non-dualists claim a self-realization that explains everything, after which there can be nothing more to know. They've seen all the facets which are only one, or even better ... none.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by inavalan

How do you know they're honest in their claims? How do you know they aren't delusional? If you are one of the above, how do you know you aren't delusional?

Is there any litmus test for not being delusional?

I surely have my beliefs, but I allow for the possibility that some of them are incorrect, and I am looking forward for corrections and more clarity. I can't imagine anybody being 100% sure they know "thee" truth.

It is also interesting that "thee" truth knowing claimants from each group have group specific behavior. If the bigotism and fanaticism of some of those are scary, the condescending attitude manifested with predilection in some groups like non-dualists (Westerners more than Easterners), atheists, scientists is ridiculous.

Inconsistency in logic , vested material interests , poor psychology ,only unapplied theory in life , imbalanced negative outlook , pessimistic passive life, divergent thoughts ,speeches and action - are some of the elements people can be less realized (not preferring to call them delusional) . This may only be a stage in life to more realization . If its done with vested material interests to the detriment of others , it can be termed malicious .

Another thing is there is nobody absolute realized like God . And also there is nobody unrealized in life . The only difference is in terms of degree , intensity and granularity .

[FallingLeaves]

from my own studies it came out quite simply. This place is designed such that it is impossible to know 'thee' truth but astoundingly simple to vainly assume you can have enough information to do so anyway. So by definition, anyone who makes the claim is lost, at least for the moment.

You can see parts of it, depending on where you are is what you see. Kinda like you choose a side of the diamond to stand on and all you see is the facets facing that side. But a claim to see the whole thing just can't have a basis in reality. And that is by design. And without seeing the whole thing, how can you know the whole truth?

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

from my own studies it came out quite simply. This place is designed such that it is impossible to know 'thee' truth but astoundingly simple to vainly assume you can have enough information to do so anyway. So by definition, anyone who makes the claim is lost, at least for the moment.

You can see parts of it, depending on where you are is what you see. Kinda like you choose a side of the diamond to stand on and all you see is the facets facing that side. But a claim to see the whole thing just can't have a basis in reality. And that is by design. And without seeing the whole thing, how can you know the whole truth?

It attracted my attention that you wrote "by design".

I can't easily imagine a reality in which you are born all-knowing, then you devolve toward a final ignorance.

Maybe I don't want to imagine such a reality, which would implode instead of expand.

That's why I have such a hard time to accept the possibility that "enlightenment", even "self-realization" would show one that the end result would be "no-thought", "no-differentiation".