Non-duality doesn't exist.

[Joe Mc]

Non Duality doesn't exist in the field of words. Because words objectivise things immediately, before the ink dries on the page. So we somehow have to leave behind the world of words if we are to have a direct realisation of the non dual. And we have to do this in a world which completely emphasises the grasping and acquisition of words through its education systems etc. What a dilemma. I don't mean to destroy words, I love words myself, as some kind of poet and songwriter, i adore the sound and song of the written word. But in the realm of seeking, words can merely point and allude at something, at least in the beginning ? But the temptation seems to be to become caught up in them and become a glorious arguer for spiritual truth ? Seems totally absurd in some ways but it fascinates me why people do it, because some of the thought processes and logic i've seen here regarding proofs of all kinds of arguments, from the existence of God to the existence of non existence have been masterpieces in wordery, really high powered intellectual production and yet somehow wrong or partial without having the grace but perhaps more so wisdom to admit that this is the case. Says my great high fuluting self through the medium of words. lol...felt i just had to chip in ...probably a load of bollocks ! lol

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Non Duality doesn't exist in the field of words. Because words objectivise things immediately, before the ink dries on the page. So we somehow have to leave behind the world of words if we are to have a direct realisation of the non dual. And we have to do this in a world which completely emphasises the grasping and acquisition of words through its education systems etc. What a dilemma. I don't mean to destroy words, I love words myself, as some kind of poet and songwriter, i adore the sound and song of the written word. But in the realm of seeking, words can merely point and allude at something, at least in the beginning ? But the temptation seems to be to become caught up in them and become a glorious arguer for spiritual truth ? Seems totally absurd in some ways but it fascinates me why people do it, because some of the thought processes and logic i've seen here regarding proofs of all kinds of arguments, from the existence of God to the existence of non existence have been masterpieces in wordery, really high powered intellectual production and yet somehow wrong or partial without having the grace but perhaps more so wisdom to admit that this is the case. Says my great high fulating self through the medium of words. lol...felt i just had to chip in ...probably a load of bollocks ! lol

What about the tradition of satsang which presumably resulted in resonance with ideas/concepts heard which ended the search for some, and which still continues today in the numerous meetins held by teachers?

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Iamit

What about the tradition of satsang which presumably resulted in resonance with ideas/concepts heard which ended the search for some, and which still continues today in the numerous meetins held by teachers?

Of course, the beautiful tradition of Satsang. Well Satsang is a communion that takes place, usually in silence. Where there are ideas, it is just a pointing using concepts and language. A finger pointing to the moon if you like. And each teacher has a penchant for his own group of terms and structural framework thats quite obvious isn't it ? So what has been said, has already been said and it has never been said before.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Iamit

What about the tradition of satsang which presumably resulted in resonance with ideas/concepts heard which ended the search for some, and which still continues today in the numerous meetins held by teachers?

Yes teachers have their own style and the different characters of seekers are attracted to different teachers. Where a message is conveyed in words, what is it in the seeker that resonates is an interesting question. If it feels like the mind resonating with concepts, I hope seekers are not put off by the bad press such a process gets in spirtual circles, so that what may feel like the end of the search is not dismissed as lacking.

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Non Duality doesn't exist in the field of words. Because words objectivise things immediately, before the ink dries on the page. So we somehow have to leave behind the world of words if we are to have a direct realisation of the non dual. And we have to do this in a world which completely emphasises the grasping and acquisition of words through its education systems etc. What a dilemma. I don't mean to destroy words, I love words myself, as some kind of poet and songwriter, i adore the sound and song of the written word. But in the realm of seeking, words can merely point and allude at something, at least in the beginning ? But the temptation seems to be to become caught up in them and become a glorious arguer for spiritual truth ? Seems totally absurd in some ways but it fascinates me why people do it, because some of the thought processes and logic i've seen here regarding proofs of all kinds of arguments, from the existence of God to the existence of non existence have been masterpieces in wordery, really high powered intellectual production and yet somehow wrong or partial without having the grace but perhaps more so wisdom to admit that this is the case. Says my great high fuluting self through the medium of words. lol...felt i just had to chip in ...probably a load of bollocks ! lol

True. Listen to any Advaita Vedanta lecture and all the important concepts are conveyed via metaphor, analogy and simile. Signposts, if you will. And this too is Maya however it is the realm mind-body navigates and always will navigate. A fish swims in water. LOL!

[django]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Non-duality doesn't exist, because the polar opposite of non-duality is duality. And together they are duality. You cannot have only one side of a coin.

I haven’t read this whole thread but I agree with the op, non-dualities doesn’t exist, IMO at least while we’re alive. I’ll try to read a few pages to see where this discussion has gone

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Non-duality doesn't exist, because the polar opposite of non-duality is duality. And together they are duality. You cannot have only one side of a coin.

Taking the coin analogy...

From the perspective of either side there are two, not one (duality). From the perspective of the coin there is only one (non-duality)

[HITESH SHAH]

Non-duality doesn't exist, because the polar opposite of non-duality is duality. And together they are duality. You cannot have only one side of a coin.

Extending the analogy of coin by JASG ,
God completely feels non-dual with us . But we may not have even basic idea of God and we may be totally atheist and thereby completely dual with respect to God . So in collective sense it's Non-duality (which by word & implication also includes duality also - of atheist also in this example) .
Non-duality also is better word and reflection of reality (than say one-ness , uniqueness ) in the sense that it is acceptance reality from all perspectives (not from quality of one-ness experience)

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Non Duality doesn't exist in the field of words. Because words objectivise things immediately, before the ink dries on the page. So we somehow have to leave behind the world of words if we are to have a direct realisation of the non dual. And we have to do this in a world which completely emphasises the grasping and acquisition of words through its education systems etc. What a dilemma. I don't mean to destroy words, I love words myself, as some kind of poet and songwriter, i adore the sound and song of the written word. But in the realm of seeking, words can merely point and allude at something, at least in the beginning ? But the temptation seems to be to become caught up in them and become a glorious arguer for spiritual truth ? Seems totally absurd in some ways but it fascinates me why people do it, because some of the thought processes and logic i've seen here regarding proofs of all kinds of arguments, from the existence of God to the existence of non existence have been masterpieces in wordery, really high powered intellectual production and yet somehow wrong or partial without having the grace but perhaps more so wisdom to admit that this is the case. Says my great high fuluting self through the medium of words. lol...felt i just had to chip in ...probably a load of bollocks ! lol

Hi

It is true that there are many things in life where words just can describe the reality /experiences fully . As the saying goes "taste of the pudding is in eating " , such things are best experienced . Those who don't have any inkling of such experience will not be able to understand and those who have felt it , do not need any description of it. So in many cases such exercise may result in futile effort with little positive outcome .

However looking this use plainly from these angles would purely be a simplistic approach and would not do enough justice to variety permutation/ combinations life proposes . As we all know spirituality is not a one moment experience . It's a journey (spanning many year/decade /birth) often very difficult and many a times resulting in failure also . In this journey many a times seeker need guidance / motivation / imagination / company of like minded . If somebody who have gone through rigors of Spirituality and is able to guide them with some words despite all its limitations , there is nothing wrong .

If fact if you see the entire journey of science , all discoveries and inventions were never understood by others . Then scientific community with their efforts , hardwork and honesty shared it vividly , with examples and elaborations . That all made a lot of difference to posterity to build upon the experience of their ancestors . I also believe spirituality is no different in this respect.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Non Duality doesn't exist in the field of words. Because words objectivise things immediately, before the ink dries on the page. So we somehow have to leave behind the world of words if we are to have a direct realisation of the non dual. And we have to do this in a world which completely emphasises the grasping and acquisition of words through its education systems etc. What a dilemma. I don't mean to destroy words, I love words myself, as some kind of poet and songwriter, i adore the sound and song of the written word.

And then there's the reality of what's 'pointed' to by statements like: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John Ch/1) Which I (albeit those who deny the existence of their 'I' clearly won't/don't) understand to mean that words (i.e. symbolic ideas) are what gave 'rise' to the 'the world' of Creation. Without such ideas being the 'focus' of The Force (the 'Life' Force) of 'God' (the Creator) there would be just be undifferentiated Being, meaning just Blob of undifferentiated Energy doing absolutely nothing. That is some folks idea of heaven, nirvana, liberation (from Life's Creative Flow, from having to be or do anything.) It ain't mine, however. In my book, choosing to 'go' in that 'direction' (i.e. back into God's 'womb') is an undesirable/unfortunate kind of spiritual 'suicide', of Life-abandonment and abdication in favor of undifferentiated 'bliss', a sure-fire way of 'attaining' a mindless-(e)motionless personal-soul annihilation, i.e. oblivion.

The other way, only revealed in the 'light' by dualistic contrast is the Way of Life - without which 'God' would be just sitting around, quite bored, doing absolutely nothing.

I submit that if that was really the 'highest' (most wonderfull) kind of possibility possible, 'God' (IamThat's THAT! ) would never have embarked on the adventure of Creation in the first place, i.e. to begin! with.

S/he that hath ears that hear (because s/he is willing to hear), let her/him hear! In this regard: "For so hath the Lord [meaning the universally present imperative to be Creative] commanded [meaning impelled] us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region." (Acts 13:47-49) comes into to my mind.

Hi-Ho Joe, this living-word life-line is especially aimed you-ward (reminiscent of the "This Bud's for you" jingle)! Think about it -in an ideationally undifferentiated, without dualism (i.e. contrast), 'light' would make no sense - there would be no colors! to be 'seen'; similarly, no differentiated sounds to be 'played' and 'heard'!