What is non duality?

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

If one and all are different aspects then its certainly not oneness.

Aspects of the one, not things separate from the one

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Never mind , I always have enjoyed duality and simply relish the fun and excitement it offers without missing the blissful existence in the non-dual experiences. So i can very well understand your experiences very well .

The thing is, there's no such thing as duality.

Originally Posted by snowyowl

I'd take this to mean there's different types of existence: unicorns don't exist physically (realism?). But we need to have the idea of them existing in our imagination in order to discuss them (nominalism?).

How can something that doesn't exist enter your consciousness? So somewhere along the line you picked up on unicorns and what they are, and if I asked you to describe them you'd likely come up with close to the same description as me.

The trick to understanding what's going on here is to delve into the origins of unicorns, which is symbolism. They are representations as much as the signs of the zodiac or animal guides. That's not imagination though, because your whole sense of who and what you are is a representation.

Imagination and 'regular consciousness' uses the same source - what you are conscious of - so saying that what we imagine has no reality is inaccurate. Imagination is a process of the exploration of possibilities with what's in your conscious while what you call real is using logic and reason. If you want to do some serious thinking, imagination is Schrodinger's Cat. You see, what decides what is real or not isn't real itself. Imagining driving that red convertible in the showroom is a possibility however unlikely and underneath the possibility is your desire to drive it. Your desire is real, your imaginings are the expressions of your desire into the conscious mind.

The objective reality is that all reality is subjective.

Originally Posted by snowyowl

Ha ha, this was my love of double entendre. It does twist my mind trying to understand this stuff, but it's also like a 'strange loop' (see wikipedia for details).

I much prefer Fibonacci spirals, they're also more natural in so many ways.

Originally Posted by snowyowl

So non-existence is also part of the realm of existence? In that case, existence has no opposite. In fact, that's true either way: if non-existence (ie nothing) does exist, it's not opposite to existence. If non-existence doesn't exist, then it's also not in opposition (or duality) to existence. So existence is the absolute. This, here and now, is the absolute.

Non-existence is in the realm of the differentiated consciousness of the ego, non-existence is based on something existing in the first place. If you say that something doesn't exist you're saying that it has already entered your consciousness and therefore it must exist yet you're contradicting yourself. Unicorns do exist but as an avatar or artefact of consciousness, and the people who say they don't exist simply don't understand as much about consciousness as they'd like to think.

There is only what exists and there is nothing that does not exist.

Originally Posted by snowyowl

I'm conscious of This (being). Sometimes it appears as separate from me, the observer, sometimes not. The me observing my own consciousness is also a strange loop: non-existence, existing. I am a self-reference, a paradox.

I'm stopping now because I need a lie down with a wet towel on my head. [/size][/font]

You shouldn't have stopped because you're on a roll. You are consciousness becoming conscious of itself, and it's those two that are different, not you. Consciousness comes in 'layers' sometimes because regardless of what you are conscious of there's always something 'above'. So first you were conscious, now you are conscious that you are conscious - which is you 'observing' your own conscious.

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Yeah the word finite is relative like everything else.

And that's one of the greatest understandings you'll ever come to.

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

So it's still relevant to the idea of non-duality and duality. As the relativity of all relativities. Perhaps even Source Relativity.

Yes it's relevant to Duality and non-Duality but there is no Source Relativity. The relativity comes from the ego, the only thing that is inherent is Isness.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Yes it's relevant to Duality and non-Duality but there is no Source Relativity. The relativity comes from the ego, the only thing that is inherent is Isness.

This is amazing thing to say, and it is true.

But then you would have to call Source Energy an Ego aswell?

I have no problem with that personally. But I do make the distinction that Source Energy Consciousness' Ego is pure positive energy and ever expanding in the vibrational being and becoming evermore here and now all that any one ever expandingly wants to be do or have.
It basically takes all our desires and holds it in vibrational escrow for us to align with the allowed receiving / realisation of it.
I think for a human being, the contrast/relativity of Source Ego is undiscernable, it is too high a frequency.

Ultimately the being without becoming, is what is the ultimate inherentness of all that exists, as the ultimate unknowable absolute aspect of existence as the being without the becoming.
But it has no awareness, and so it cannot be experienced or known, no other and so no self. As there is no polarity/duality/energy/awareness/vibration/consciousness/reflection/becoming.

Would you agree with that, or would you say it differently?

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

But then you would have to call Source Energy an Ego aswell?

The ego is, as Jung put it, the centre of the field of consciousness or "A sense of I am." Nothing to do with energy. There is a relationship with energy and consciousness that creates physical reality though, as quantum theory will tell you.

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

I have no problem with that personally.

'Positive' and 'negative' is nothing more than binary/polarised thinking and frankly of little use. It's judgement against personal parameters. Consciousness is not energy.

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Ultimately the being without becoming, is what is the ultimate inherentness of all that exists, as the ultimate unknowable absolute aspect of existence as the being without the becoming.

There is no 'ultimate', that's a construct of the mind.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

The shift to bliss is permanent, irrespective of the external, unless one is in deep physical pain, maybe.

I mean experience of bliss may not be permanent for seeker. For whom it has become permanent they are adept masters which are rare to find.

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

I mean experience of bliss may not be permanent for seeker. For whom it has become permanent they are adept masters which are rare to find.

My experience as well as understanding is different. Let us not be in awe of bliss. I mean, it’s great, in that it grips us in a continuum of heightened rapture, we are equanimous, the external recedes, we are tranquil, some level of empathy and compassion manifests … but …

… but … what of other enablements? Directly imbibed wisdom/ knowledge, luminescence, unbroken awareness, control over the elements, access to different realms? The touch of Gods hand?

It is not necessary that someone who is graced by bliss in permanence is complete. Far from it. Yet we each seek, what we don’t have, without gratitude for benedictions bestowed. An ego urge of course.

The journey is long.

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

Entering the quagmire.........I was a bit resistant to non-duality. On various Buddhist forums there would be those I dubbed as The Non-Dual Thought Police who would patrol the threads jumping from a great height at any with the temerity to give expression to blatantly dual thought, views and experiences. One such would respond to my impertinent questions by constantly saying:- "Why do you keep saying 'zen' " and possibly thought this the heights of enlightenment (of which, if you think of it, there can be no heights) Once one of my comments/questions was greeted with:- "It's mighty cold outside today" and possibly the poster was pleased with their profundity!

But time moves on. Just as God Himself/Herself is That/Who in which we live and move and have our being, I accept now that non-duality is that in which we do much the same. The trick - as Dogen explained in his poetic ways - is to realise non-duality within duality (I think I have that the right way around... ) We really have no choice.

The problem is highlighted in language which by its nature is dual. A word will always be a part, not the whole, and thus is a poor tool for expressing ultimate truth. This problem is found in such works as the Tao te Ching which begin by declaring the Tao cannot be expressed in words and then proceeds to give us 81 chapters explaining the Tao in great detail. In effect we are always expressing non-duality within duality, some just do it better than others. Thinking about it (not always the best option) this very much brings us back to where we started with very little gained.

"If a flower had a God it would not be a transcendent flower but a field"

I find the faith I have the only place to start. In faith I touch "base", "the ground" (which in the eastern way of seeing things is "empty") and from there diversification can arise. But base (emptiness) must be touched first. I fill my own faith with "infinite compassion, infinite wisdom, infinite potential". I found/find myself having it (or being it) and recognise this as a gift not an attainment. I have found from experience that much good comes in spite of my beliefs rather than because of them.

No doubt some will scan this post looking for signs of real attainment but as I say, I'm not really interested in attaining anything.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Consciousness is not energy.

I find this difficult to understand. Could you explain further?
What do you term energy?

I don't think consciousness is limitted energy. Where there is a certain amount to go around. It is more boundless and unlimitted perhaps. And transcends common dualities and notions of limitations. Or capable of it atleast. It is more infinite.

It feels like consciousness is the closest thing I can get to non-duality. It feels like if something has to fit through the eye of the needle, it would be consciousness. It is the closest thing I can get to "existence" or "beingness".

Hwoever, there is always something present in the consciousness, even if there is a presence of lack in there. And something unknown and new. And unusual or unexperienced before. A new form or kind of consciousness and awareness and perspective.

However, I find that it all happens within consciousness. As existence has all the ways of coming to know itself. I would then say that consciousness is that existence.

But there is still some notion of duality in the idea of consciousness. Consciousness perceiving itself. Experiencing its own awareness. It's as non-dual as I can conceive. But there is still the experiencer and experienced. Even when it is known to be the self. Purposefully split for the sake of variety and moreness and awareness and endless dreaming and endless illusion/maya or infinite variety and dreams and creations. Boundless experiences. Endless experiences. From the botomless well of eternal consciousness.

Maybe It doesn't matter, because there is nothing outside of the self, to be conscious of anything other than the self, of consciousness. So might aswell call it non-dual existence.

Yet, I find the perspective of claiming my consciousness to be ultimate existence, non-dual, a bit weird. Because my logical mind says, there is the dreamer and the dream. So I guess the logical mind then wants to say consciousness is energy in one aspect of its being. And yet the ultimate being without my personal ego consciousness, would be difficult for me to understand and so its not energy? And its non-dual?

However, I always say ultimate existence being without becoming cannot be experienced as there is no energy and no awareness no vibration. Yet, when I investigate my own consciousness, I CANNOT EXPERIENCE IT EITHER! SO MAYBE CONSCIOUSNESS IS TRUELY ULTIMATE BEINGNESS?

I cannot seem to become aware of my own awareness. But maybe this is just my limitation. I recall being able to become aware of my awareness in the past. It was a very good experience as far as I am able to recall it. Truely beyond any suffering or sadness. Pure. Indestructable. Like the ultimate core realisation of my being.

But it requires some deliberately ability to focus consistent upon my own awareness to expand the realisation of my own awareness of my own awareness. And I'm not good at focusing lately. So it might just be my own limitation. Yet I hear others also mention that it is not possible to become aware of the awareness, because we are it. But I find nearly everything ellusive like this. So maybe it is my lackful ability of focus. I don't know.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

... I'm not really interested in attaining anything.

I always say I wanna know my self. But if I don't know who I am, how can I even know if I want to know myself or not?

I guess I am myself, no attainment necessery. But to attain the consciously realised knowing of myself and attain the conscious realisation of my self and my own true being and my conscious knowing of it or realisation of it.

Sometimes it feels like I am one with that knowing, but it is so free and boundless and ultimate, that beyond that experience, there is no possible way of reproducing that, not even recall it, or re-experience it in anyway.

It just is what it is and I am what I am. And I knew it for a while and it didn't matter much, except that it felt good inside of me to know myself and then it dissapears due to getting lost, or distracted and it wanes. Like a candle light wanes and dissapears. Because I get distracted always in some way, deviate from my knowing and then it vanishes like a mirrage. Where I try to hold on to concepts, to guide me back home to who I truely am. But they never do.

I am myself. But if I cannot experience myself. What does that say about me? Am I even myself? If I am not, then who would I have to be? And if I am an illusion, then who or what is experiencing this illusion? And why even... Why? Why is something experiencing this?

From past experiences, the source creates all out of love from bliss, yet here I am. Surrounded by all of it appearantly, and not able to find it... When I am made out of it. And I am it even. And I cannot even find a "knowing". Like... What is veiling my awareness to such limitted extend? How can I even forget who I am, what purpose does it have/serve in the grand scheme of things?

I honestly don't know, as I don't even have acces to my own greater knowing/awareness to even answer. Or even know the answer. I feel like I am stuck in a limitted perception of a limitted awareness. It feels like my awareness decided to stick its head in a deep thick metalic enclosure. And trying hard to grow and inflate like a balloon. And I wonder, isn't that thick heavy limitation also made out of my own awareness? Why would my own awareness choose to limit a portion of itself (little old me) to such extend? What purpose is there to all of this?

Feels like a conspiracy. And I wanna say the joke again. Non-duality is classified. Who and what and why is keeping it secret from me?