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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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  #21  
Old 20-06-2020, 05:20 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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I'm sure one can find mountains of ''research'' and info from vegan ''doctors'' saying humans are 'herbivores'. I challenge any self convinced herbivore to live in the wilderness on a vegan diet. Also, no cooking allowed, no fire, no tool use. Lions don't do any of that either and vegans say we need an even playing field.

It's fun to develop new diets but by the end of the day the human body does very well getting its nutrition from animal food ((some allergies here and there, but that's even more common with plant foods)). There were and are no vegan civilizations. Humans hunt(ed) and later on domesticated animals for meat and milk (and other things which are irrelevant here).

Imagine a herbivore species hunting other animals, domesticating them, and being able to digest meat...
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  #22  
Old 20-06-2020, 07:15 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I'm sure one can find mountains of ''research'' and info from vegan ''doctors'' saying humans are 'herbivores'. I challenge any self convinced herbivore to live in the wilderness on a vegan diet. Also, no cooking allowed, no fire, no tool use. Lions don't do any of that either and vegans say we need an even playing field.

It's fun to develop new diets but by the end of the day the human body does very well getting its nutrition from animal food ((some allergies here and there, but that's even more common with plant foods)). There were and are no vegan civilizations. Humans hunt(ed) and later on domesticated animals for meat and milk (and other things which are irrelevant here).

Imagine a herbivore species hunting other animals, domesticating them, and being able to digest meat...

Researchers (not vegans) have been studying the fossil records for decades. And some of their findings show the following.

The approximate date of human existence was somewhere around 6.5 million years ago according to the chart on the page. But fossil records suggest that at about 2.5 million years ago, was when hominids began scavenging/hunting meat. So for the first 4 million years of hominid existence, were ‘we’ eating fruits, nuts, tubers and such?

The closest extant evolutionary relatives to humans, i.e., chimpanzees and bonobos, have predominantly frugivorous diets (75), but it is probably an oversimplification to use them as strict models for our common ancestor .....

.....between chimpanzees and later hominins including Homo, suggesting a diet that was fairly general and mixed (150, 167) rather than specialized on one food component such as fruit or tough vegetation.

The large and thick-enameled teeth of australopithecines [~4.1–1.4 million years ago (Mya)] suggest diets that included hard foods (e.g., 154). …… Recent biomechanical modeling studies of craniofacial strain suggested that australopithecines may have used their premolars to open the strong shells of relatively large seeds. However, other researchers focus on starch-rich underground storage organs (USOs), such as bulbs and corms, as a major component of australopithecine diets. Consistent with the idea that USOs were an important food source, fossils of mole rats—USO specialists—are found at the same fossil sites with hominins significantly more often than expected by chance. Moreover, the stable isotope ratio signatures suggest that the co-occurring mole rat and hominin fossils may have been consuming similar foods

….Some of the fossil findings (2.5 million years ago) are consistent with scavenging activities, but on the whole, there is still considerable uncertainty about the relative importance and timing of scavenging versus hunting in hominin evolution......
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4163920/

As far as your little challenge, I challenge you likewise, except, you can't use a gun, a trap, a knife, strings, chains, lights.....to catch your dinner. No fire to cook it, just you, your fingers and those teensy-weensy little canines to hunt, kill and consume. You're also allowed to scavenge road kill and no limits on how long it's been laying there. If you evolved to catch and kill prey, that should be easy and in the case of road-kill, safe(?). Have fun.
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #23  
Old 20-06-2020, 07:27 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Just what in the world are you trying to communicate Debrah?
We're homo sapiens, not any of the other species. Our ancestors evolved as meat eaters.

I don't need to do any challenge without tools, and neither does a vegan. The meaning behind the 'challenge' was to make you think about the wilderness and how humans survive. We make tools, weapons, fire. We hunt and we cook. We do not have to do it like lions, which is the fallacy that vegans always bring forth. We evolved to catch and kill prey. If you argue against it because we need tools and weapons than you can't farm either and that means no more vegan diet for you. Without civilization you can try and live like (or with) the gorillas but you'll make a poor gorilla.
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  #24  
Old 21-06-2020, 03:29 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
OMG, call him a liar just to hang onto your point. I'm beyond amazed. Maybe I should hold that as my philosophy whenever you speak. Or Altair, or any of the other people who share here.


I didn't call him a liar, and he might be telling the truth, but since lying about drug use is very common in the muscle universe, and he competes without any testing against steroid users, and considering how difficult it is to get that lean and muscular without drugs, it is reasonable to suspect he has used performance enhancing drugs. However, if he is telling the truth and has not used, he really is a remarkable genetic outlier for muscle growth.
That aside, even if he uses drugs to enhance his physique, he is not disadvantaged in competition by his vegan diet, and I think that's the valid point of the documentary - that you can achieve elite level performance without eating animal products.
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  #25  
Old 21-06-2020, 03:49 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
Just what in the world are you trying to communicate Debrah?
We're homo sapiens, not any of the other species. Our ancestors evolved as meat eaters.

I don't need to do any challenge without tools, and neither does a vegan. The meaning behind the 'challenge' was to make you think about the wilderness and how humans survive. We make tools, weapons, fire. We hunt and we cook. We do not have to do it like lions, which is the fallacy that vegans always bring forth. We evolved to catch and kill prey. If you argue against it because we need tools and weapons than you can't farm either and that means no more vegan diet for you. Without civilization you can try and live like (or with) the gorillas but you'll make a poor gorilla.


The 'natural fallacy argument' holds no water except to say prehistoric or pre-agricultural humans ate what was available to them within their respective environments, and even that fluctuated with the seasons. We can be quite sure of a few general things, though. For example, protein and especially fat, would be a highly valued nutrients, and unfortunate animals would be good sources of these. However, I don't think hunting, fishing or foraging for insects and grubs for survival is morally equivalent to the mass supply of animal products in modernity, so veganism became ethically relevant in recent times, whereas in pre-agricultural antiquity, killing to eat was simply a necessary aspect of life. However, it is likely that a more fundamental morality concerning ecologically sustainability was endemic to the beliefs of prehistoric humans just about everywhere, and because so few people were alive, the world might have seemed inexhaustibly abundant.
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  #26  
Old 21-06-2020, 09:58 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTe-...ature=youtu.be

Much of vegan apparently linked to the 7th Day Adventist Church. They take a religious perspective on diet ((Biblically they aren't necessarily wrong, but that's still religion, not science!)). I'm all for healthier diets with less sugar and junk, and more smart choices with animal food, but I don't believe disinformation ((and always equating meat with fast food)) is an ethical direction. If people really respect the scientific method they need to accept that things don't always align or support their own beliefs or ideology.
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