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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Complementary Therapies & Traditional Medicine > Hypnosis

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  #21  
Old 04-05-2011, 08:15 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna-prem
Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with goodness.
So, improvement is not your goal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna-prem
Why should I change such a belief? We are all manipulated all the time.
The reason you change your beliefs,
Is because they are always changing?

In other words,

You change your beliefs because your beliefs just change,
And you change them without considering that you are doing something evil?
(Like in post #13?)

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna-prem
How exactly does reason come out of desire for good? How are you defining reason and good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
...reason proceeds from a desire of good over not good (rejecting contradictions).
I didn't answer these questions already?
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  #22  
Old 04-05-2011, 08:47 PM
Krishna-prem
Posts: n/a
 
This discussion has veered well away from hypnosis so I will leave it at this. Goodness, badness, and reason are all categories that are cultural constructed. They are a part of the hegemonic framework we are forced into as children. Evolution is natural process- it is devoid of good or badness. Any quality attributed to it is just that.
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  #23  
Old 05-05-2011, 05:41 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna-prem
This discussion has veered well away from hypnosis so I will leave it at this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
The other person, (or a different person in a similar role), then encourages you to indulge in the temptation again, and you agree without consideration.
The discussion of temptations certainly relates to hypnosis.

In Catholicism,

Temptation is like the Cross of Christ,
We, like Christ, take on sin (consider doing something evil),
And try not to actually sin (following our natural desire for good over evil).
Temptation is where the spiritual war for happiness (which is something good) is won or lost.

Breastplates symbolize the armor of justice (which is reciprocal) (Ephesians 6:14).
Divine justice is receiving more good than what we deserve (i.e. forgiveness).

Breastplates protect vital organs such as the heart, which symbolizes the soul,
The soul is both a mind that thinks and a will which chooses,
And if the "heart" is injured,
The ability to think and choose good over evil is weakened.
So, forgiveness helps sustain us after falling into temptations.

Last Sunday, the Catholic Church celebrated the Feast of Divine Mercy.
The Feast of Divine Mercy was instituted by an apparition of Jesus,
As recorded in the diary of St. Maria Faustina.
In which he discussed an image of himself...

Quote:
"My image already is in your soul. I desire that there be a Feast of Mercy. I want this image, which you will paint with a brush, to be solemnly blessed on the first Sunday after Easter; that Sunday is to be the Feast of Mercy (49)."

"Not in the beauty of the color, nor of the brush lies the greatness of this image, but in my grace (313)"

"The two rays denote Blood and Water. The pale ray stands for the Water which makes souls righteous. The red ray stands for the Blood which is the life of the soul (299)

These two rays issued forth from the very depths of My tender mercy when My agonized Heart was opened by a lance on the Cross. These rays shield souls from the wrath of My Father. Happy is the one who will dwell in their shelter (299)...

"The flames of mercy are burning Me - clamoring to be spent; I want to pour them out upon these souls (50)"

"Mankind will not have peace until it turns with trust to My mercy (300)"
This image is not to be confused with the idolatry discussed in Exodus 20:4-5,
It is like Numbers 21:8, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten (by serpents), when he sees it, shall live."
Or Exodus 25:18-19, "You shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on two ends of the mercy seat."
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  #24  
Old 06-05-2011, 12:33 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
"Souls who spread My mercy I shield through their entire life as a tender mother her infant... Happy is the soul that during its lifetime immersed itself in the Fountain of Mercy, because justice will have no hold on it." (1075)

Diary of St. Maria Faustina
St. Faustina is referred to as the "Apostle of Mercy,"
But all catholics are encouraged to spread mercy,
Being"olive branches" in the world, sowing peace,
By giving and receiving mercy.
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  #25  
Old 07-05-2011, 05:46 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna-prem
This discussion has veered well away from hypnosis so I will leave it at this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna-prem
Manipulation happens all the time and is a wonderful thing
I remember a hypnotic technique called the "double-bind" method.

It involves arranging a "no-win" situation where no learned rule can be effectively applied,
It is designed to help liberate someone from following a learned rule,
Which they consider going against their conscience.

However, it is misapplied when the defined "learned rule,"
Is the conscience itself (desiring good over evil).

I'll try to bring them up as they come to me.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna-prem
Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with goodness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
So, improvement is not your goal?
Without agreeing or disagreeing with evolution,
The process of evolution is guided by certain unchanging goals (which are considered as good),
Which transcend any changeable part of the physical body.
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  #26  
Old 07-05-2011, 06:04 PM
jjj
Posts: n/a
 
Not really 'no-win'. It offers an 'either- or'. example: "You can continue to smoke, polluting your lungs with each inhale until you develop cancer and die or you may choose a healthy life-style of breathing clean air as a non-smoker."


A person wants to stop smoking because it is healthier (we are assuming, if they are in hypno for it) but they also want to enjoy a cigarette. In time, if they are given these 2 options where one is stronger (the healthy, clean air), they will choose the stronger one.

It is only no-win if you really DON'T want to quit smoking. In that scenario, "You can either suffer for not having a cigarette or suffer from having a cigarette."

:p

A "devious" form of a type of double bind is used by girlscouts: Should I put you down for 4 boxes or 5? ;)
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  #27  
Old 08-05-2011, 02:53 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
Not really 'no-win'. It offers an 'either- or'. example: "You can continue to smoke, polluting your lungs with each inhale until you develop cancer and die or you may choose a healthy life-style of breathing clean air as a non-smoker."
Actually, an example of a double-bind is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
So, whether or not we are avoiding temptations to do evil, it is rewarding and empowering?
In other words, whether or not we are thinking about doing evil, it is rewarding and empowering?
After seeing dissatisfaction of one temptation, it is lessened when you indulge in an associated temptation?
jjj,
You never did answer my questions from post #16.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
You change your beliefs because your beliefs just change,
And you change them without considering that you are doing something evil?
(Like in post #13?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
The process of evolution is guided by certain unchanging goals (which are considered as good),
Which transcend any changeable part of the physical body.
The mind can use the body as a tool.

For example,
We can choose to focus on our breathing,
Letting our own breathing (which we do not consciously control) lead the mind to help us clear our thoughts.
But the mind (will) always has ultimate authority over the body if it so chooses.
Essentially, having the body lead the mind is a form of mind control.

However, if you are not aware that you are allowing your body lead your mind,
Then someone manipulating your body can secretly manipulate your mind.

According to Catholicism,
The soul (mind, will) is the body’s superior,
And to teach and encourage this is called a “Spiritual Work of Mercy.”
In fact, it is a heresy to accept equality of the mind and body, which would leave any catholic subject to excommunication.
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  #28  
Old 08-05-2011, 06:02 PM
jjj
Posts: n/a
 
Like I said, if you didn't really want to stop smoking then it would be a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. My daughter used this on me the other day "Well, either I can go now with my boyfriend," (instead of folding clothes), "or I can drive (illegally) myself later." LOL... but the truth is, she had to fold clothes and then it was her problem if she wanted to leave and how she would get there. So, recognizing your options is more likely once a person has worked through his/ her "****". In a perspective, if you are addicted to cigarettes then you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. You risk lung cancer on one side or suffer for not having the cig on the other. It is perspective. Much of this 'evil' stuff is perspective. Some religious and/ or moral perspectives do not allow for other options. Either you are bad or you are good. But we all have these feelings so I am doomed to be bad... only God is good and I am not. That isn't my perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy

jjj,
You never did answer my questions from post #16.

As I said, you believe in evil differently than I do. We could start a whole debate on that and I'm assuming it's not the purpose of this forum. I believe that the concept of evil that is commonly held by the church is a form of control through fear. I love everything that Jesus has to teach but I do not love everything that the church has to teach. Say you believe that indiscriminate sex is evil. So, you have a desire to hook up with someone who you meet and who is willing in the bar (I believe that SIN= Self Induced Negativity btw :) ). Although you have a desire to have sex with this person, you probably have a 'higher' desire not to. I believe that sex is an act that combines energies so having indiscriminate sex leads to physical, sexual, and emotional diseases. So, if I were in that situation; I wouldn't have a sense that I was tempted to evil. I would have a sense that I had a physical desire to have sex but an over-riding desire to protect myself and keep myself pure in a physical, spiritual, and emotional sense. I wouldn't have guilt or shame over the impulse to have sex. There's lots more to that but that's it in a nutshell. Under hypnosis, if I were given the suggestion that I would go to a bar and have sex with someone; I MIGHT go to the bar (if that was not outside of what I would normally do) and I MIGHT have a greater than normal sexual attraction to someone. My body might respond to the suggestion of sexual attraction because it is within human nature to experience that. However, my VALUES would hold me back from actually having the encounter. Without the shame associated with the urge, that would be that. If I did experience the shame associated with the urge then more work would be needed. Also, if I had that shame associated with the urge, I may be confused and may 'unconsciously' decide that I am dirty and unclean because I had these feelings and I may eventually begin to have indiscriminate sex. These messages may come from society, family, etc... and in a way they are as hypnotic suggestions. It is how shame is formed and it is the source of impurity. And I don't mean 'impurity' in the commonly-held prudish way that we may have grown to think of it. It takes time to wash away these impurities... it takes work and forgiveness.
Quote:


The mind can use the body as a tool.

For example,
We can choose to focus on our breathing,
Letting our own breathing (which we do not consciously control) lead the mind to help us clear our thoughts.
But the mind (will) always has ultimate authority over the body if it so chooses.
Essentially, having the body lead the mind is a form of mind control.
I believe that the body is a magnificent creation and that it holds memories and clues that our mind does not. We are so afraid of mind control these days. Fear is the greatest of controllers/ suppressors. Fear is, very valuable when it warns of impending danger. The dysfunction happens when the mind and body perceive danger that is not really there. When we do not honor our bodies by listening to the messages, we develop disease. Things such as heart rate, respiration, tension, etc.. they are all indicators. A sexual desire can also be an indicator. It's not evil... it's part of who we are.
Quote:

However, if you are not aware that you are allowing your body lead your mind,
Then someone manipulating your body can secretly manipulate your mind.
Perhaps you can give a clear example of when/ how this might happen?
Quote:

According to Catholicism,
The soul (mind, will) is the body’s superior,
And to teach and encourage this is called a “Spiritual Work of Mercy.”
In fact, it is a heresy to accept equality of the mind and body, which would leave any catholic subject to excommunication.

If the soul is driving, it does make the experience in the body much safer and more pure from my perspective. :) Remembering the beauty that is you is very healing. I'm glad that I am not Catholic but I honor your Catholicism. I like the "Worship the creator, honor the creation" philosophy.

Last edited by jjj : 08-05-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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  #29  
Old 09-05-2011, 07:05 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
You're mistaken, a double-bind is never a win-lose situation, hence the term, "double-bind."
The solution to a double-bind is about rising above the double-bind,
And following your conscience.

A double-bind is like a temptation, or embracing the Cross of Christ,
It is where we suffer whether or not we choose what we consider as good or evil.
But it also challenges us to choose good over evil, even where there is no clear reward.

(Even the belief in heaven requires an act of faith).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
Things such as heart rate, respiration, tension, etc.. they are all indicators.
Indicators of many contrary things, this is why we need to use reason (in the mind) to sort the information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
Perhaps you can give a clear example of when/ how this might happen?
I discussed awareness in post #13. Could you be more specific?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
You change your beliefs because your beliefs just change,
And you change them without considering that you are doing something evil?
(Like in post #13?)

Even without an apparition of Jesus or the Catholic Church to tell us,
The "Corporal (Bodily) Works of Mercy," are secondary to spiritual.
We care for the sick, not because we are caring for the sick,
But because we accept that caring for the sick is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
I am doomed to be bad... only God is good and I am not. That isn't my perspective.
The goodness in all people is found in our ability to choose good over evil.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
So, whether or not we are avoiding temptations to do evil, it is rewarding and empowering?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
As I said, you believe in evil differently than I do. We could start a whole debate on that and I'm assuming it's not the purpose of this forum.
Happiness is good, unhappiness lacks goodness.
However, you believe that good and evil are equal?
And it is empowering to go against your conscience and do what you consider is evil?
(This continues to addresses the issue of hypnosis as a way of manipulating one against one's will.)
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  #30  
Old 09-05-2011, 11:48 PM
jjj
Posts: n/a
 
Hi :) I will just respond to this once more because I think it would better fit elsewhere but I am drawn into it a little. Double binds aren't used for losing. It is perception. http://www.key-hypnosis.com/How-to-h...Techniques.php One time when this technique may be used in hypnosis is in situations of resistance. What this means is that someone has come in for a session but there are parts of them that are fighting entering a trance. Unless you are going to a stage hypnotist, you are going to someone who has studied to learn how to facilitate healing. My training and that of others here was first in Psychology and Counseling and then in Clinical Hypnosis as an added tool. My feeling and the feeling of some others in the field is that it is a calling, much like priesthood. You don't have to believe this, but this is what I was called to. Actually, MY hypno training is in Heart Centered Hypnotherapy http://www.wellness-institute.org/home.html.

I think you are giving the hypnotist too much power. :) We have no power over anyone. In therapy (without hypnosis) there are ways to deal with resistance and in hypno there is too. When someone comes in, it is to seek assistance because they have created blocks (resistance) to helping themselves for various reasons which typically have fear or shame underlying.

I do not see my faith as causing me suffering. It's saved me from lots of it though. I think that there are many names but as far as I can see... you really can't trick the light.

Your post 13 was not an example... it used no life examples but just things such as 'temptation A and temptation B'. A real life scenario of when this might happen would be useful to those of us who don't live in your head (no matter what our clients might believe... we all live in our own heads only ;) ).

I don't remember saying that good and evil are equal... I don't know that I would quantify them that way... I'm not even sure that I believe in 'pure' evil (not sure) but I do believe in pure Love. I mean, even the fallen one was once good which means that there is good within 'him'.

No, it is empowering to be able to have values that you stick to. You are reading me really wrong and I really am trying to be clear. Being clear is important. People who wish to coerce, do not need hypnosis to do so. Did you read the paper that I posted? Of all of the hypnotherapy that I have undergone, I have never been coerced to do anything against my will. In fact, all of the choices that I made prior to, during, and since the therapy have been more in alignment with my true will and Divine Will than ever before. The shame has slowly been dealt with and whisked away to help me to love myself. I mean, if I don't love myself... then I doubt the Divine Love that lives within me, right? Not only that... but if I don't have love within.. then how can I give it? It's great to have a conscience... it's necessary!

Unhappiness does not lack Divine goodness though. I mean, there is beauty to be found. There are gifts in all that is within. All of our emotions and all of our feelings are valid and there for a reason. Like the signals within our bodies, our emotions are there to show us where our happiness lies and where our wounds in need of healing hide.

Many Blessings upon your path, brother~
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