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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Complementary Therapies & Traditional Medicine > Hypnosis

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  #11  
Old 30-04-2011, 06:13 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
You are assuming that hypnosis (from Satan???)

No, just as sex in itself is not evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
This may be in the wrong forum but there is also a problem with confusing guilt with shame. Guilt is adaptive. Shame is maladaptive.
Guilt motivates one to confess. Shame motivates one to conceal. Guilt is feeling bad for something that you did wrong. Shame is feeling that YOU are wrong, unworthy, bad.

So, how do you know when to confess and call it “guilt,” versus when to conceal and call it “shame?”

In psychology, shame is destructive only when it is a no-win situation,
Such as feeling ashamed that something occurred to you which was not your fault,
(Such is the case of many sexual abuse victims).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
(e.g Catholics sometimes confuse temptations with sins in the confessional).

However ,you don't have to be Catholic,
The seven deadly sins (rooted in the 10 Commandments) can be found elsewhere.
A person can feel guilty for considering cheating on a spouse (lust), or after anytime you become angry (anger),.
Or after being falsely accused of being: selfish (pride), lazy (sloth), greedy (avarice), overeating (gluttony),
Wanting something that is someone else's (envy).
If no guilt is experienced initially,
Guilt can develop and increase through the repetition of these situations.

Pushing guilt out of awareness can be associated with forgetting other things.
For example, in the movie "The Bourne Identity," the main character experiences amnesia.
He felt extremely guilty when remembering himself killing people, so instead of forgetting only the guilt,
He also forgot about who he was as well as killing people.
Identifying himself as a killer served as a cue,
Causing him to experience extreme guilt.

So to forget guilt, without even abusing alcohol,
A person could forget anything which may cue them in recognizing their guilt,
Such as their natural desire for good over evil, or happiness (something good) over unhappiness (something not good).

Furthermore, any esoteric "secret knowledge" of understanding that good = evil,
Is simply severe guilt which has been pushed out of awareness.
And once good = evil is accepted,
Evil actions (and guilt) are permitted to increase,
Making it more difficult to choose to re-experience, and resolve the already severe guilt.

Deeply held feelings of guilt have also been found at the root of delusions of grandeur,
(Such as believing that you are some great prophet),
Which could also explain the esotericism (having a special knowledge unknown to many) involved in having this "secret knowledge."

In Catholicism,
Experiencing guilt (or good shame) is helpful for improvement, but only with the confidence that all sins (no matter how severe the guilt involved) can be forgiven.
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  #12  
Old 30-04-2011, 10:09 PM
jjj
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
No, just as sex in itself is not evil.



So, how do you know when to confess and call it “guilt,” versus when to conceal and call it “shame?”

When you are ready to confess, it loses it's impact. Typically shame is formed due to suggestions that you are bad (verbal or non-verbal)... typically stemming from childhood but can be picked up at any time. The subconscious adopts those 'suggestions' and they become part of your operating system. Once the shame is "confessed", the healing begins. So, in this way I do think that Catholic confession is a good thing. :) It is part of becoming transparent or clear in my own belief system. It is getting in touch with the purity of the child. This part, connected to God was once whole... and becomes broken and 'unclear' through things such as shame. Sometimes it is shame because we have internalized guilt to mean certain things about ourselves... and sometimes it is the shame of another person (such as when we are sexually, physically, or emotionally abused). We adopt that shame as our own and therefore do not speak of these things... sometimes. So, there is not how you know when to confess and when to conceal... the urge to confess or urge to conceal is how you know whether it is shame or whether it is guilt. God loves us... we are His children. So, it is getting in touch with that part of ourselves.
Shame is always destructive... not just when it 'belonged' to someone else. Always.
Quote:


However ,you don't have to be Catholic,
The seven deadly sins (rooted in the 10 Commandments) can be found elsewhere.
A person can feel guilty for considering cheating on a spouse (lust), or after anytime you become angry (anger),.
Or after being falsely accused of being: selfish (pride), lazy (sloth), greedy (avarice), overeating (gluttony),
Wanting something that is someone else's (envy).
If no guilt is experienced initially,
Guilt can develop and increase through the repetition of these situations.
From my experience, there are parts there that need to be explored and healed. For instance, forgiving the self for humanity. However, the want to cheat may be a want for closeness or a feeling that something is lacking... an actual want to connect deeply with someone. Overeating is also a coping mechanism (a maladaptive one)... and there is something underlying. The same is true for each of these. Guilt does not increase with these urges, shame does. There is an underlying, "I must be..." message and that is shame.
Quote:



In Catholicism,
Experiencing guilt (or good shame) is helpful for improvement, but only with the confidence that all sins (no matter how severe the guilt involved) can be forgiven.
I can buy that ;) Although there is no good shame. Pushing guilt out of awareness is SHAMING and there is an "I must be..." message underneath.

You could say that all learning (adaptive and maladaptive) use the conscious and the subconscious parts of the mind so in this way you could relate all of this to hypnosis. However, it all has very little to do with hypnosis or hypnotherapy as we would commonly practice it. Because I am practicing from a mental health position, it is all relevant to me. Fear causes 'guilt' to become shame. Or it causes us to push little shameful feelings under the rug because the conscious mind does not want to think we're bad but the subconscious mind has accepted this as true. I personally believe that we misunderstand 'sin'. The knowledge of good and evil has clouded our ability to care in a pure way because there is such fear. But that's my perspective. Doesn't have to be yours. :) Trying to resist temptation without confession or without working through the UNDERLYING causes to the shame is like trying to force yourself to go to sleep. It doesn't work. You could call shame a spiritual disease. It can trick us into believing that we are not even worthy to take up the air we breathe. The whole "accepting God into your heart" has taken on new meaning for me now. When it comes to healing and forgiving the self, you have to think... am I able and willing to allow myself to receive?

Last edited by jjj : 01-05-2011 at 02:32 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-05-2011, 04:01 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
you will not be manipulated by something you don't want to do

I'm still working on this statement.
Maybe if I clarify what I mean when a temptation occurs, it might make our discussion more clear.


Here is what can be seen during a temptation:

1. Two temptations occur in one event.
2. You are thinking about and attending to one temptation, and not really the other.
3. You successfully resist both temptations.
4. Resistance to the temptations is followed by some dissatisfaction, such as someone being dissatisfied with you.
5. From what you see, the other person is dissatisfied with you for not indulging in the temptation.

Here is what is not necessarily seen about the temptation that you're not really thinking about:

1. The outcome may partly include your own dissatisfaction with yourself for being tempted (you considered doing something evil),
and partly with yourself for not indulging in the temptation (continued attachment to the evil).
2. You accept that the outcome to the temptation involves your own dissatisfaction of yourself.
3. You also accept that your own dissatisfaction with yourself involves considering doing something evil and not indulging in the temptation.
4. The other person's dissatisfaction is identified with your own dissatisfaction in not indulging in the temptation.
5. The other person's dissatisfaction is then interpreted as being in agreement with your own.

Here is what can be seen during the next temptation:

1. The other person, (or a different person in a similar role), then encourages you to indulge in the temptation again, and you agree without consideration.
2. The indulgence in the temptation is followed by some satisfaction, such as the other person being satisfied with you.
3. In agreement, you become satisfied with yourself for indulging in the temptation.
4. The agreement is reinforced through repetition with both satisfying and dissatisfying consequences, depending on your response to each temptation.
5. The temptation to greater evil can then also be added and increased through the same repetition.

So, the real struggle against evil seems to occur where the situation is not seen.


Regarding Catholic confession as a solution:

"For a constant and speedy advancement in the path of virtue we highly recommend the pius practice of frequent confession, introduced by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; for by this means we grow in a true knowledge of ourselves and in Christian humility, bad habits are uprooted, spiritual negligence and apathy prevented, the conscience is purified and the will strengthened, salutary spiritual direction is obtained, and grace is increased by the efficacy of the sacrament itself. (Pope Pius XII, 'Mystici Corporis')"
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  #14  
Old 01-05-2011, 04:11 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
When you are ready to confess, it loses it's impact
I hope your not reading into anything.
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  #15  
Old 01-05-2011, 06:34 PM
jjj
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
I hope your not reading into anything.

lol... I wasn't ;) I meant "you" in a generic way.

I think we're getting REALLY off of the topic of hypnosis. However, I do agree that 'suggestions' that are 'in the dark' are more dangerous than those that are 'in the light'. I could comment a great deal more but I'm not sure it is really constructive or on-topic.

Interesting perspective though. What you are talking about is positive punishment (dissatisfaction by the person who was 'tempting' you as well as by yourself by being tempted). Beating yourself up for being tempted has shame underlying. Beating yourself up for the other person's dissatisfaction also probably has shame underlying and most likely involves some codependency stuff. However, this is all 'psychology' and not hypnosis. It's all very classic behavioral stuff. :) Maybe you mean that one of the 'temptations' does not carry the same 'weight' as does the other. For instance (for instances help, btw): You have told your boyfriend that you will not have sex with him... he responds with anger or being upset (positive punishment), you respond by eating to numb your feelings. The result is that the negative feelings from the boyfriend's upset are lessened (negative reinforcement). Positive punishment makes it less likely that you will repeat that behavior (maybe you will engage in sex next time or you will not be close to that person or others again). Negative reinforcement/reward makes it more likely that you WILL engage in that behavior (overeating) again the next time that you become upset. Because it is numbing and it is not immediately positively punishing (by weight gain), it is more difficult to see this behavioral pattern and "temptation" is more likely to win. The difference is that you are explaining it with an element of 'evil' and I am just describing it from a behavioral science perspective. My experience has been (and it can be different for you and that's fine) that the element of "evil/ bad girl" creates a cycle of shame and hinders self-love. It is borne of the idea that people are innately bad (that's fine if that is your view), rather than of the idea that people are innately good.

Like I said, though we're not dogs. Our values and belief systems are rewarding. Avoiding temptations to behave in a way that conflicts with our beliefs is rewarding. If not, there may be some conflict within our beliefs. It is empowering!

Positive Reinforcement: A reward is given
Negative Reinforcement: something negative is taken away
Positive Punishment: A punishment is given
Negative Punishment: something positive is taken away

Okay, but we are off-topic :)
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  #16  
Old 02-05-2011, 06:15 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
So,
When you say, "you will not be manipulated by something you don't want to do,"
You mean that "you will not be manipulated if you are obeying any desire of yours, without thinking about doing evil?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
Avoiding temptations to behave in a way that conflicts with our beliefs is rewarding. If not, there may be some conflict within our beliefs. It is empowering!
So, whether or not we are avoiding temptations to do evil, it is rewarding and empowering?
In other words, whether or not we are thinking about doing evil, it is rewarding and empowering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
The result is that the negative feelings from the boyfriend's upset are lessened
After seeing dissatisfaction of one temptation, it is lessened when you indulge in an associated temptation?
Such as in the two temptations I mention in my post #13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
The difference is that you are explaining it with an element of 'evil' and I am just describing it from a behavioral science perspective.
With reason, we separate things like true and false, good and not good.
If an event involves two simultaneous temptations,
For the purpose of separating belief from reason,
(Again, as I described in my post #13),
Then if we separate belief from reason,
How do we know whether or not we are being secretly manipulated?
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  #17  
Old 03-05-2011, 04:18 AM
Krishna-prem
Posts: n/a
 
You are constantly manipulate all the time, every single day. We all are. We are manipulated by media, religion, school, friends, family, internet, and any other time we come into contact with human thought, including our own. Even what you consider to be "reason" is a manipulation of your thinking that is a direct result of the intellectual tradition in which you were born.

Manipulation happens all the time and is a wonderful thing. This is the natural result of neuroplasticity. The brain is structured so that change in thought is the norm.

If we were not manipulated we would never learn, or grow, or have the ability to incorporate new ideas.

Cheers!

KP
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  #18  
Old 03-05-2011, 03:10 PM
Psychotheosophy
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
Here is what can be seen during a temptation:

1. Two temptations occur in one event.
2. You are thinking about and attending to one temptation, and not really the other.
3. You successfully resist both temptations.
4. Resistance to the temptations is followed by some dissatisfaction, such as someone being dissatisfied with you.
5. From what you see, the other person is dissatisfied with you for not indulging in the temptation....

...Here is what can be seen during the next temptation:

1. The other person, (or a different person in a similar role), then encourages you to indulge in the temptation again, and you agree without consideration.
2. The indulgence in the temptation is followed by some satisfaction, such as the other person being satisfied with you.
3. In agreement, you become satisfied with yourself for indulging in the temptation.
4. The agreement is reinforced through repetition with both satisfying and dissatisfying consequences, depending on your response to each temptation.
5. The temptation to greater evil can then also be added and increased through the same repetition.
This "behavior science perspective" followed by a statement like jjj's...

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjj
Avoiding temptations to behave in a way that conflicts with our beliefs is rewarding. If not, there may be some conflict within our beliefs. It is empowering!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
So, whether or not we are avoiding temptations to do evil, it is rewarding and empowering?
In other words, whether or not we are thinking about doing evil, it is rewarding and empowering?
Could be taken as a hypnotic suggestion considering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
...Here is what is not necessarily seen about the temptation that you're not really thinking about:

1. The outcome may partly include your own dissatisfaction with yourself for being tempted (you considered doing something evil),
and partly with yourself for not indulging in the temptation (continued attachment to the evil).
2. You accept that the outcome to the temptation involves your own dissatisfaction of yourself.
3. You also accept that your own dissatisfaction with yourself involves considering doing something evil and not indulging in the temptation.
4. The other person's dissatisfaction is identified with your own dissatisfaction in not indulging in the temptation.
5. The other person's dissatisfaction is then interpreted as being in agreement with your own....
But also,...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy
After seeing dissatisfaction of one temptation, it is lessened when you indulge in an associated temptation?
Such as in the two temptations I mention in my post #13.
Since choosing between the lesser of two evils is difficult, the line separating the two temptations can be blurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna-prem
Manipulation happens all the time and is a wonderful thing... The brain is structured so that change in thought is the norm.
Evolution of the brain follows standards of goodness (adaption, survival,...) over a lack of goodness (not adapting, extinction,...),
And reason proceeds from a desire of good over not good (rejecting contradictions).

What would cause you to change your belief that manipulation is a wonderful thing?
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  #19  
Old 03-05-2011, 03:46 PM
Krishna-prem
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Evolution of the brain follows standards of goodness (adaption, survival,...) over a lack of goodness (not adapting, extinction,...),
And reason proceeds from a desire of good over not good (rejecting contradictions).

What would cause you to change your belief that manipulation is a wonderful thing?

Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with goodness. Goodness or lack of goodness are categories you place on it as a result of your own beliefs. Evolution is a complicated network of trial and error that results in the genetic selections that leave creatures with best chance of survival. This also includes that adaptation of some characteristics which are not "good" but they function within the parameters of evolutionary trade offs.

Regardless, this has little to nothing to do with neuroplasticity.

How exactly does reason come out of desire for good? How are you defining reason and good?

Why should I change such a belief? We are all manipulated all the time. If manipulation did not occur you would never learn, develop, grow, or change states. Of course some people can use manipulation for their own selfish benefit but that does not make manipulation a bad thing.

It's nothing scary or sinister. Your friend calls you and they're having a bad day, you say things that cheer them up - that's manipulation. A client comes to me with a life long fear of dogs, I hypnotize them and the fear is gone- more manipulation. I go to my temple and the priest says perform this rite and receive blessings or someone else goes to church and the priest says do this and burn in hell- both are manipulations.

Really though this does not have a whole lot to do with hypnosis.
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  #20  
Old 04-05-2011, 01:20 AM
jjj
Posts: n/a
 
Good post, Krishna.

The key (I think) is to know what your values are, for sure. Sometimes when we've been manipulated in certain ways, we are incorrect about our values.... about what they are.

Someone asked me yesterday, "What if I did something wrong and I feel guilty and ashamed but this thing is something that I have decided is alright for me?" Either, society is telling her that this thing that IS alright for her is not and is causing an incongruence between her CORE belief and what she thinks she 'should' believe or she has gone against a core belief but is trying to justify it. I believe it's the former... but either can cause the feeling.

I work with 'spirit' in general when doing hypnotherapy. What I mean by that is that I ask the person at a particular time if they have a spiritual connection, what they call that connection (often God, Jesus, higher self, guide... or guide's name, etc). In that way, the person's belief is honored because I trust that they are on the path meant for them. Sometimes, deep levels of work do go back to things dealing with early spiritual or religious influence. Many times fear of being innately wrong (because of being gay, not being classic 'Christian', etc) has caused them to develop a deep sense of shame of who they are (ON A SPIRITUAL LEVEL) and that has to be healed in order for them to be well in a spiritual, physical, and emotional sense. So, they had things ingrained in their minds early on and maybe they were "hypnotized" (in a very weird sense of the word) into believing them. It's actually just learning.... learning that they are innately shameful beings. As a result, things like addictions, perfectionism, neurosis manifest. :)

Blessings~
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