What is the best tool for Divination?

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Then what would you use to be divinely-inspired? How do you know what is inspiring you is actually according to Divine Will? Like many people are "divinely-inspired" to kill others and themselves in the process, is this actually Divine though.

You can use anything to be "divinely inspired" though there are certain ritual techniques that help induce an altered state of mind to heighten these experiences. From a pantheist mindset, the universe is divine, so all things are "divinely inspired" regardless of whether or not we personally like them or condone them. "Divinely inspired" =/= the correct path for me/you/others.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

All human beings are subject to 4 defects:
They make mistakes
They are in illusion
They cheat
Their sense are imperfect and limited

Therefore they do require Guidance, especially if you are endeavoring for Self-realization; in every field of knowledge we require a Teacher.

Heh, I think that's probably a short list. We could make lists of human flaws all day. We could also make a list of human merits and wonders all day as well, so I would stop short of saying that we "require" guidance. It can be a good idea, doubtless, but I wouldn't sell us short. Regardless, each to their own. If you don't trust human-mediated guidance, I don't blame ya. Personally, I'll continue to rely on human beings for things in life.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

How can you have faith in the results of your Divination if you don't know what is their origin. You may have wasted your whole life before you realize that you have been misguided.

It's less about faith than it is about results to me. Useful results don't require faith; they're useful regardless. I don't blindly follow the results of a divination; it doesn't make my decision for me, ever. I use divination as a way of considering different angles of a situation. It's a think-tool, to put it another way.

As for being misguided, hitting some blocks in life is pretty much unavoidable regardless of how you life your life. Mistakes happen. How you deal and learn with them is what's important to me.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

You can use anything to be "divinely inspired" though there are certain ritual techniques that help induce an altered state of mind to heighten these experiences. From a pantheist mindset, the universe is divine, so all things are "divinely inspired" regardless of whether or not we personally like them or condone them. "Divinely inspired" =/= the correct path for me/you/others.

It's not question of what we like it's question of what God likes. So that mean the holocaust was Divine inspired?

Originally Posted by Quintessence

Heh, I think that's probably a short list. We could make lists of human flaws all day. We could also make a list of human merits and wonders all day as well, so I would stop short of saying that we "require" guidance. It can be a good idea, doubtless, but I wouldn't sell us short. Regardless, each to their own. If you don't trust human-mediated guidance, I don't blame ya. Personally, I'll continue to rely on human beings for things in life.

My point is that because of these defects humans can not be a source of perfect knowledge. For prefect knowledge we have to go to a Divine source.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

It's less about faith than it is about results to me. Useful results don't require faith; they're useful regardless. I don't blindly follow the results of a divination; it doesn't make my decision for me, ever. I use divination as a way of considering different angles of a situation. It's a think-tool, to put it another way.

What kind of results have you had with what kind of Divination?

Originally Posted by I-Ching

It's not question of what we like it's question of what God likes. So that mean the holocaust was Divine inspired?

"What God likes" doesn't compute well in my theology. Everything is deity. Various aspects of the divine (which includes humans) will have different likes, needs, and purposes. Everything is deity = everything is in some fashion divinely inspired. No exceptions. So yes, this includes the Holocaust. Divine inspiration isn't all fluffy bunnies, sparkles and light.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

My point is that because of these defects humans can not be a source of perfect knowledge. For prefect knowledge we have to go to a Divine source.

I don't believe in perfect knowledge. Or rather, I find its existence (or not) irrelevant because that state of "perfectness" (in the sense you probably mean) could never be understood by humans anyway given our limitations as a species. In other words, if "perfect" knowledge comes to us, it'll be "corrupted" by our own limitations anyway, making the hypothetical existence of perfect knowledge a moot point.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

What kind of results have you had with what kind of Divination?

Usually it works well. I get something out of the majority of my divination sessions. When I have problems, it is typically because I failed to get myself in the right "head space" to be seeing clearly. Trying to do divination when you're really frustrated, for example, doesn't work particularly well. You have to ground that out and be in a more neutral head space to get good results (or at least this has been my experience). There have been a few times that I just haven't been able to understand what the Spirit of the Cards are telling me. In those cases, I let the cards sit out and think about it throughout the day. Eventually, something else comes up and I get an "oh, that's what that was trying to say!"

Originally Posted by Quintessence

"What God likes" doesn't compute well in my theology. Everything is deity. Various aspects of the divine (which includes humans) will have different likes, needs, and purposes. Everything is deity = everything is in some fashion divinely inspired. No exceptions. So yes, this includes the Holocaust. Divine inspiration isn't all fluffy bunnies, sparkles and light.

For there to be Divine Inspiration there must be a Divine Inspiror. Deity is everything but that doesn't mean you can limit Deity to being only everything. I am sure there are aspects of Deity that you are not aware of. Why do limit Deity to not being a sentient being? If you are sentient surely Deity is also sentient.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

I don't believe in perfect knowledge. Or rather, I find its existence (or not) irrelevant because that state of "perfectness" (in the sense you probably mean) could never be understood by humans anyway given our limitations as a species. In other words, if "perfect" knowledge comes to us, it'll be "corrupted" by our own limitations anyway, making the hypothetical existence of perfect knowledge a moot point.

A Divine Being can know perfectly and can impart that knowledge to us and even though we may corrupt that knowledge, that being can always give to us again.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

Usually it works well. I get something out of the majority of my divination sessions. When I have problems, it is typically because I failed to get myself in the right "head space" to be seeing clearly. Trying to do divination when you're really frustrated, for example, doesn't work particularly well. You have to ground that out and be in a more neutral head space to get good results (or at least this has been my experience). There have been a few times that I just haven't been able to understand what the Spirit of the Cards are telling me. In those cases, I let the cards sit out and think about it throughout the day. Eventually, something else comes up and I get an "oh, that's what that was trying to say!"

What do you consider to be a good result? If you get clear messages from the cards is that a good result?

Originally Posted by I-Ching

For there to be Divine Inspiration there must be a Divine Inspiror. Deity is everything but that doesn't mean you can limit Deity to being only everything. I am sure there are aspects of Deity that you are not aware of. Why do limit Deity to not being a sentient being? If you are sentient surely Deity is also sentient.

*slightly confused blink*

Divine Inspiror?
When did sentience come into this discussion? Where did I imply I thought deity wasn't "sentient" in some meaning of the term?
How is seeing deity in everything limiting? I mean... everything is everything.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

What do you consider to be a good result? If you get clear messages from the cards is that a good result?

It's a good result if it's useful. What "useful" means depends somewhat on the context. Generally speaking, though, useful means I got information from the reading that is meaningful to me. This usually requires the messages be clear, but on occasion, lack of clarity can be a teacher too.

[Verunia]

I believe all divination techniques lead to the same thing, and are 'powered' by the same thing. Our own selves and our will to manifest our desires or our answers. I flip coins all the time to gain insight or advice on what I should do. Though I do favor Tarot over most, because of the art work and the diversity of the cards- it makes for deep and interesting messages.

I personally think the I-Ching is the best tool, because a pendulum can be influenced by your subconscious, whereas coins can't.

You can say that with utmost certainty? I believe the way our muscles move to flip the coin often determines the outcome. I couldn't mind though. The subconscious is a place where great strides in life can be made. I think an unimaginable amount of things are residing in the unconscious, that paint our daily lives. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

Divine Inspiror?
When did sentience come into this discussion? Where did I imply I thought deity wasn't "sentient" in some meaning of the term?
How is seeing deity in everything limiting? I mean... everything is everything.

In your previous post you implied that God/Diety didn't have a Will.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

"What God likes" doesn't compute well in my theology. Everything is deity.

If human society followed Deities Will then It wouldn't be forced to punish us with suffering like wars, famines. etc.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

It's a good result if it's useful. What "useful" means depends somewhat on the context. Generally speaking, though, useful means I got information from the reading that is meaningful to me. This usually requires the messages be clear, but on occasion, lack of clarity can be a teacher too.

This still doesn't imply to me that the source of your messages is actually benevolent.

My needs are not your needs, my theology isn't your theology. I could keep going with this conversation, but... at this point I'm going to step out. How I see the divine is radically different than the angle you're coming from, so many of your replies aren't tracking well for me.

In general, I honestly don't care what the motives are for the "source" of my divinations (if there even are such motives and such a source). I measure it based on utility, not intent. Wisdom and insight can be gleaned from something regardless of its source/intent.

Originally Posted by Verunia

I believe all divination techniques lead to the same thing, and are 'powered' by the same thing. Our own selves and our will to manifest our desires or our answers. I flip coins all the time to gain insight or advice on what I should do. Though I do favor Tarot over most, because of the art work and the diversity of the cards- it makes for deep and interesting messages.

For Divination system to work it must be of Divine origin. I don't think concocted systems such as throwing coins work. I tried concocting my system by converting the binary results of flipping coins into letters and I didn't get any intelligible results in return, unless there is a spirit that speaks gibberish. I feel tarot leaves at lot to your own imagination. Since the cards are just images that can be interpreted in many ways.

Originally Posted by Verunia

You can say that with utmost certainty? I believe the way our muscles move to flip the coin often determines the outcome. I couldn't mind though. The subconscious is a place where great strides in life can be made. I think an unimaginable amount of things are residing in the unconscious, that paint our daily lives. But that's just me.

If your theory is that you can control the flip of a coin then why don't you go to a casino and control the roll of dice. If you cannot demonstrate your theory then it has no value.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

My needs are not your needs, my theology isn't your theology. I could keep going with this conversation, but... at this point I'm going to step out. How I see the divine is radically different than the angle you're coming from, so many of your replies aren't tracking well for me.

I'm not interested in my theology or your theology. I'm interested in establishing the Truth on a rational basis. Beyond our man made labels is the Reality and it doesn't care what label we give it. The laws of that Reality will act whether we believe in them or not. That why it in our best interest as intelligent human beings to establish what is actually the Truth. Attachment to some concocted labels will not help us to advance on the Path. If beliefs do not stand up to rational inquiry then they are unlikely to be true. Perhaps you make assumptions about my theology.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

In general, I honestly don't care what the motives are for the "source" of my divinations (if there even are such motives and such a source). I measure it based on utility, not intent. Wisdom and insight can be gleaned from something regardless of its source/intent.

If your are unconcerned with the intent of your "guide" then it implies that your own intent is doubtful. i.e. when we want to be cheated then Diety sends us a cheater. The "wisdom" of a "guide" with bad intent is unlikely to result in spiritual advancement. Assuming you want that.