The Sainthood and Martyrdom of St. Paul

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

So, what is this vilification of St. Paul, the martyr, who established some 14 congregations... by the Gnostics perspective and teachings?

And, in the Christian Forum?

In Christianity, forgiveness is taught and practiced.

Not all people believe that as is evident when people vilify the Apostle Paul. But there is more to the scene.

There is no evidence Paul participated in the stoning of Stephen, but many people look at that act as a big smear on Christianity. When that event occurred, Paul was a Jew and Christianity had not come into existence. Those who would later become Christians at that time, considered themselves Jews and still worshiped in the Temple.

Paul is considered by some to be a 'thug' but in many cases those making such accusations, seem to stir peoples' emotions to the point that some might lash out physically. Their actions and Paul's actions before his conversion are uncanny similar.

Sure, Paul established at least 14 Churches, but what stands out in my mind about Paul is his unbelievable progressive thinking after his conversion. In many cases, it was Paul that brought an end to many long time traditions of the Law. He elevated women but unfortunately is remembered by many on his view on head coverings and teaching by women. Those same people do not seem to realize that under Paul, much liberties became available that the people never had before.

It seems to me that there are plenty these days (and many many in the past) who call themselves Christians, and claim to perpetuate the teachings of Jesus, yet go around beating, imprisoning, and separating family members. So if Paul did transform from a disposition of hate and violence, to one of love and acceptance, it would seem listening to the Christian scriptures may not have been enough.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019...MasterAt3x.jpg

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by ketzer

It seems to me that there are plenty these days (and many many in the past) who call themselves Christians, and claim to perpetuate the teachings of Jesus, yet go around beating, imprisoning, and separating family members. So if Paul did transform from a disposition of hate and violence, to one of love and acceptance, it would seem listening to the Christian scriptures may not have been enough.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019...MasterAt3x.jpg

Paul was already dead before any of the books of the New Testament were written. Because of this, Paul never 'listened' to any of the Christian scriptures.

You make it sound like Christians are the only ones who "go around beating, imprisoning, and separating family members" which is not true. Besides, Paul was first a Jew and later converted to being a Christian. Did Paul, as a Christian, "go around beating, imprisoning, and separating family members"?

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Paul was already dead before any of the books of the New Testament were written. Because of this, Paul never 'listened' to any of the Christian scriptures.

You make it sound like Christians are the only ones who "go around beating, imprisoning, and separating family members" which is not true. Besides, Paul was first a Jew and later converted to being a Christian. Did Paul, as a Christian, "go around beating, imprisoning, and separating family members"?

I never said Christians were the only ones, you seem to have taken that away from what I said for some odd reason. No, Christians are not the only ones, but given their professed devotion to Jesus and his teachings, one just has an understandably higher expectation of one who claims to know and follow him. An expectation that some live up to quite well, but typically it seems quietly and humbly so. Yet so many others seem to use their Christian faith and Christian Bible as a weapon to judge, condemn, and reject others. They wear their faith on their selves for all to see, yet don't seem to mind if their professed values must become a casualty of their culture war. They overlook it when others who are often fleeing persecution, as Christians once did, are denigrated, beaten, imprisoned, and have their children taken away and caged. They quote chapter and verse, yet don't seem to understand the spirit of the teachings and the teacher as a whole. If, as in their hymn, we could know they were Christians by their love, perhaps there wouldn't be such urgency among them to prove it to us.

True, much of the Christian dogma would not have been written down in the time of Paul, and so he could not have gotten his faith from them. Perhaps that is a good thing. One wonders that without all those Chapter and Verse numbers to faithfully memorize to prove himself a Christian, perhaps Paul instead had to base his faith on a different type of understanding of Jesus and his teachings. Maybe it is a good thing that Paul wasn't able to get all of his Christian values from a book or television show, else we may never have had this.

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is LOVE...

[FallingLeaves]

hi ketzer,

revelation did after all indicate that jesus would in the end turn away a great number of the people who claimed to follow him, on the basis that he did not know them. I guess following the path he layed out would be a prerequisite for any relationship with him... so... it is understandable that it was known from the outset that many people would claim to be christians but wouldn't really be that.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

hi ketzer,

revelation did after all indicate that jesus would in the end turn away a great number of the people who claimed to follow him, on the basis that he did not know them. I guess following the path he layed out would be a prerequisite for any relationship with him... so... it is understandable that it was known from the outset that many people would claim to be christians but wouldn't really be that.

Yes, very true. To be honest though, I have never been much of stickler for insisting on the truth of something because it was once written, and perhaps many times reinterpreted, in scriptures. I have never been at ease with a literal interpretation of revelation nor with the spirit that many see in the text. Nor the interpretations of rejection at judgment day in other parts of the NT. It seems to me that if many approached Jesus that did not know him, he would have sought to be known rather then turn them away.

But yes, one follows the path he laid out to find the kingdom of heaven, and that path goes through oneself. In there, preaching and acts done for show or just for ones own benefit are known as such. On the outside, one may pretend to follow a path, or even do their best to follow the letter of the law, and yet may remains lost on the inside, and within is where one must find the kingdom. I expect that is the point that Paul was making in his so often quoted letter. That all one says and does on the outside, will not matter if one does not have love. Without love, they will remain lost inside.

.

[inavalan]

Maybe the turning away just refers to those not ready to end their reincarnation cycle, which is overwhelmingly the case. That doesn't have a negative connotation: rinse and repeat (surely, don't repeat exactly as you've done and expect different results either ...).

I'd add that I believe that just loving God, Jesus, unconditionally everybody, or such won't do it. But, what do I know?

[FallingLeaves]

that is the point, they don't ever try to go meet jesus, or even want to, they just take up his name so that they can get social kudos or whatever for doing so. Seems like he said what he said about what he wanted to say (which included death on a cross at their hands) and they had the choice to listen and go meet him but ignored it in favor of what they could get in terms of short-term gains... what more is he supposed to have done? What more could he say or do that would get through to them if they weren't going to listen to what was already said and done?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I never said Christians were the only ones, you seem to have taken that away from what I said for some odd reason. No, Christians are not the only ones, but given their professed devotion to Jesus and his teachings, one just has an understandably higher expectation of one who claims to know and follow him. An expectation that some live up to quite well, but typically it seems quietly and humbly so. Yet so many others seem to use their Christian faith and Christian Bible as a weapon to judge, condemn, and reject others. They wear their faith on their selves for all to see, yet don't seem to mind if their professed values must become a casualty of their culture war. They overlook it when others who are often fleeing persecution, as Christians once did, are denigrated, beaten, imprisoned, and have their children taken away and caged. They quote chapter and verse, yet don't seem to understand the spirit of the teachings and the teacher as a whole. If, as in their hymn, we could know they were Christians by their love, perhaps there wouldn't be such urgency among them to prove it to us.

True, much of the Christian dogma would not have been written down in the time of Paul, and so he could not have gotten his faith from them. Perhaps that is a good thing. One wonders that without all those Chapter and Verse numbers to faithfully memorize to prove himself a Christian, perhaps Paul instead had to base his faith on a different type of understanding of Jesus and his teachings. Maybe it is a good thing that Paul wasn't able to get all of his Christian values from a book or television show, else we may never have had this.

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is LOVE...

Do you really believe this about Christians"They overlook it when others who are often fleeing persecution, as Christians once did, are denigrated, beaten, imprisoned, and have their children taken away and caged"?


..........Seems like you trying to politicize this?

If I didn't know better............

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Do you really believe this about Christians"They overlook it when others who are often fleeing persecution, as Christians once did, are denigrated, beaten, imprisoned, and have their children taken away and caged"?


..........Seems like you trying to politicize this?

If I didn't know better............

I guess all of us wear filters (beliefs) that distort out perception of reality.

There were reasons / necessities for which states were formed, borders were established, laws were written: to protect their citizens. That's why we live in houses with walls, and lock our doors: for protection.

There is also a distinction between dealing with your internal lawbreakers, and the external ones.

I will share my bread with needy strangers until my family gets hungry. That is a reasonable limit. Also, when my bread is limited I'll have to make a choice whom to help.

It's tempting to listen to your heart.