Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Soul Seeker

That was Christianity, blind fool.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

Regards
DL

In the USA, a person does not have to go into the military even if there is a draft.

If you go look at how many Buddhist are in the USA military, you might be surprised there are quite a few.

Then go look at one group that many despise and that is Jehovah's Witnesses. They have zero members in the USA military.

Is it possible you may have judged all 'Christian' groups guilty when some 'Christian' groups stand out as being different from the majority of 'Christian groups'?

The same also holds true for Islamic groups.


And then you go look at Gnostic beliefs........... what is their position on going to war, fighting, etc. I do not know. Gnostics seem to not let us know their beliefs but are adamant that other religions are wrong. Why not share Gnostic beliefs such as the name of your God, etc?

Originally Posted by BigJohn

In the USA, a person does not have to go into the military even if there is a draft.

If you go look at how many Buddhist are in the USA military, you might be surprised there are quite a few.

Then go look at one group that many despise and that is Jehovah's Witnesses. They have zero members in the USA military.

Is it possible you may have judged all 'Christian' groups guilty when some 'Christian' groups stand out as being different from the majority of 'Christian groups'?

The same also holds true for Islamic groups.


And then you go look at Gnostic beliefs........... what is their position on going to war, fighting, etc. I do not know. Gnostics seem to not let us know their beliefs but are adamant that other religions are wrong. Why not share Gnostic beliefs such as the name of your God, etc?

All you need do is ask. There are Gnostic Christians around who are eager to convert the immoral to a moral ideology.

There are a number of Gnostic type O.P.s on the board.

To your request on the name of god.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation and “I am”, represents the best rules and laws that we have found to live by.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRN...layer_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Soul Seeker

All you need do is ask. There are Gnostic Christians around who are eager to convert the immoral to a moral ideology.

There are a number of Gnostic type O.P.s on the board.

To your request on the name of god.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation and “I am”, represents the best rules and laws that we have found to live by.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRN...layer_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

Ancient Gnostic writings do identify the Gnostic God.

Gnostics also have their own scriptures.

Exactly what Gnostics believe, is hard to discern.

As I mentioned and tried relating to you, people from various religions can be identified by their fruits.
Most Christians/Jews/Buddhist/Hindus/ etc. see nothing wrong with in going to war. I assume Gnostics feel the same way. But there are some people who refuse to do that and a lot of other things they consider not to be right.

You basically 'condemn' Jews, Christians and Muslims in your writings but never really expressed the teachings of the Gnostic God ( for example, how did the Gnostic God come into existence) which I find interesting. Even the name of the Gnostic God is never mentioned.

Ancient Gnostic scriptures, from what I have studied, do not seem to use the "I Am" let alone use it as a name for their God.

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Ancient Gnostic writings do identify the Gnostic God.

Gnostics also have their own scriptures.

Exactly what Gnostics believe, is hard to discern.

As I mentioned and tried relating to you, people from various religions can be identified by their fruits.
Most Christians/Jews/Buddhist/Hindus/ etc. see nothing wrong with in going to war. I assume Gnostics feel the same way. But there are some people who refuse to do that and a lot of other things they consider not to be right.

You basically 'condemn' Jews, Christians and Muslims in your writings but never really expressed the teachings of the Gnostic God ( for example, how did the Gnostic God come into existence) which I find interesting. Even the name of the Gnostic God is never mentioned.

Ancient Gnostic scriptures, from what I have studied, do not seem to use the "I Am" let alone use it as a name for their God.

You are asking me what I believe, then reject it by invoking our myths, that we do not read literally.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02...list=PLCBF574D

-------------

"( for example, how did the Gnostic God come into existence)"

The same way all our gods came into existence.

We made them up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA

Regards
DL

[foundation123]

No.

Here is my take.

There is no punishment for punishment sake.

On Repentance, there is immediate forgiveness. No punishment for past sins. No Repentance, no forgiveness.

Jesus did not take punishment instead of us. Not a scape goat, nor a needy God to satisfy. He hung there to show us the way and that His talk was not mere talk. The blood was shed to show us the way of selflessness and up to laying down one's life, no matter how gruesome. It was shed to show the way. Not shedding for shedding sake.

The faith that we talk of us is an evil faith. Real Faith on Him would lead to immediate Repentance and their lies the salvation. Faith without works is not just dead, it is a lie, an evil.

One of the places Apostle Paul messed up by speculating and trying to draw parallels between old covenant and new.

That is why we have only One Teacher and none other. There is no other Authority other than Him, and we discuss and more than that that contemplate reaching into our inner minds and heart for their lies the connection to Him, direct and personal.

Originally Posted by foundation123

No.

Here is my take.

There is no punishment for punishment sake.

On Repentance, there is immediate forgiveness. No punishment for past sins. No Repentance, no forgiveness.

Jesus did not take punishment instead of us. Not a scape goat, nor a needy God to satisfy. He hung there to show us the way and that His talk was not mere talk. The blood was shed to show us the way of selflessness and up to laying down one's life, no matter how gruesome. It was shed to show the way. Not shedding for shedding sake.

The faith that we talk of us is an evil faith. Real Faith on Him would lead to immediate Repentance and their lies the salvation. Faith without works is not just dead, it is a lie, an evil.

One of the places Apostle Paul messed up by speculating and trying to draw parallels between old covenant and new.

That is why we have only One Teacher and none other. There is no other Authority other than Him, and we discuss and more than that that contemplate reaching into our inner minds and heart for their lies the connection to Him, direct and personal.

I like you moral rejection of Jesus dying for us.

Care to opine on how most, if not the huge majority do not see as clearly as you do?

When you speak of the way, do you mean the way that the Gnostic Christians like me recognize?

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRN...layer_embedded

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by foundation123

No.


One of the places Apostle Paul messed up by speculating and trying to draw parallels between old covenant and new.

Indeed.

What is that quote, or maybe I said it? To believe in the new, one must believe there was error in the old.

To think Yahweh screwed up with that, one may as well believe that he also lied when he said that once something comes out of his mouth, he never retracts it.

Trump should be so.

Regards
DL

[foundation123]

Originally Posted by Soul Seeker

I like you moral rejection of Jesus dying for us.

Care to opine on how most, if not the huge majority do not see as clearly as you do?

When you speak of the way, do you mean the way that the Gnostic Christians like me recognize?

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRN...layer_embedded

Regards
DL

1. What we seek is immediate gratification rather than relying on sound principles.

2. We confuse some of the means of happiness as the ends.

3. we are not confident that we could be happy (the ends) without these material world means. We do not have that courage and clarity that the ends is not dependent on these material means.

4. We make Assumptions. That the Bible is the word of God are something like it.

5. I have sought maniacally.

Gnostic Christians: In real Christianity, there is no this Christian, that Christian for it is one body. Gnostic Christians are fools. Are you missing the rock, the foundation in the main Gospels. You miss the camels here and go straining for gnats.

Are you interested in your body being full of light or Spiritual Light. All that means IMO is focus. Focus on Spirituality. Principles of wisdom, love, courage, truth and their derivatives.

John 14:23: Is that different from what I wrote.

Romans 8:29: Shun it. like plague. Do not speculate. Do not indulge in theologies.Do not split hairs. Focus on living His teaching.

Originally Posted by Soul Seeker

Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners.

IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.

If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.

These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jew and a Rabbi.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, and Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.

Regards
DL

I don't think Jesus would do such a thing intentionally. Humans of course would do it and do do it all the time. Luckily we can just blame it all on Jesus and he will take the punishment for us. Saved our assess again! A good egg that J man is!

So when you think about it, he is sort of an enabler of our bad human behavior. We do the sinnin and he takes the whoopin, and we need never learn our lessons. Sounds like a little version of heaven, so why are we all so angry and violent anyway?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I don't think Jesus would do such a thing intentionally. Humans of course would do it and do do it all the time. Luckily we can just blame it all on Jesus and he will take the punishment for us. Saved our assess again! A good egg that J man is!

So when you think about it, he is sort of an enabler of our bad human behavior. We do the sinnin and he takes the whoopin, and we need never learn our lessons. Sounds like a little version of heaven, so why are we all so angry and violent anyway?

Why did Jesus die?

Why did his death have to be on the day it occurred?

What benefits did Jews immediately receive as a result of his death?

Jesus' death provided what hope for mankind?


The answers to these questions provide positive insight about Yahweh and his son.