Rather removing karma or growing from it?

Originally Posted by Jyotir

the incessant attempts to negate and invalidate spirituality in principle
by what amounts to sterile intellectual debate,
does not in any way constitute an authentic spiritual practice!

~ J

Yes, that goes for people like me - reading and talking - it ain't no substitute either.

But at least some people have self awareness about it.

Others like to create intellectual walls, invite others to sit in the prison with them, and claim "that's all there is"

J.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'd have to work very hard to take issue with anything you're said there, and just right now it's more bother than it's worth. So yes, the 'whole being' is part of a hugely complicated network of interconnected systems but few seem much interested in becoming aware of what doesn't suit the label, which is an irony and I often wonder how Spiritual people are when they have the flu and a head-full of snot.

Yes Greenslade, indeed.
I'm not sure what you mean with your last bit though. Can you explain what you mean with ''how spiritual people are when they have the flu and a head-full of snot.'' ??

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I don't even use the word 'karma' in the mainstream sense because it's become corrupt, essentially. It's gone from meaning cause to all kinds of silliness, and frankly I'm not much interested in that paradigm. It represents a mentality NOT Spirituality - but the two are connected.

A mentality that often seems related to one's sense of morality. When people suggest it is mere action-reaction they're having a laugh. If it were that simple than there would be no consequences of you hitting a mosquito, but many believers insist that there is, and you've been doing a bad deed. They suggest there are consequences to such deeds, which ironically means no living being can ever break free of karma as life feeds on life.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Religions were formed when people began to realise that there was something beyond the physical, they were a way of helping people understand what is now termed as meta-physical. It's simple group dynamics and what began in the days of the hunter-gatherer is still in play today, like-minded people will naturally gravitate together and their respective Spiritualities will be affected accordingly.

I agree. One can also see an evolution of religion, from a focus on animal and plant spirits to more human-animal hybridization, to gods and goddesses with personalities, to eventually a psychological reduction where happy feelings and blissful states of being take prominence.

This obviously intermingled but I find it interesting because what we believe is a reflection of our times. Today many people who call themselves spiritual have adopted eastern beliefs, which never would've happened without all the Hindu missionaries in the 20th century. Our experiences do not come in a vacuum. Today on this forum people argue over Eastern concepts. If this was the year 1400 and we had the internet we would interpret all this mysticism as the Holy Spirit and there would be no room for ''samsara'', holy cows or ''spider collects karma for eating the bug''.

As a side note, I don't know if you are familiar with neurologist Sam Harris. He has experimentally studied eastern mysticism for years, and comes from a scientific perspective. He recognizes the value of spiritual practice but also thinks it is necessary to avoid what he calls superstitions.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

However, religion and Spirituality are driven by humans and not divinity and that is reflected in how religion and Spirituality is expressed. There's more of a move away from the human by way of denial or seeking escape.

Yes, I've looked a lot into that particular topic of escapism. Denial and escape are apt words, and important in many spiritual paths, and I don't mean to use those two words in a negative light here. Denial of certain pleasures or escaping them seems to be key in many spiritual paths. Ironically, some prominent denials ((food, orgasm, comfort)) lead to health decline (physical/'mental') and the symptoms may be confused for spiritual progress.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It's not so easy to deal with yourself, it's easy to declare yourself Spiritual and enlightened and the idea that you can create your own reality - however unconsciously that comes through - can be very appealing.

Super appealing belief. We love agency.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I don't know if I have a Soul but I do know there is something other than the five-sensory existence. Those bugs exist, live and breathe as much as I do and if that means they have a Soul too then I'm OK with that. I'd like to think that we all have 'something inside' that is a part of something more eternal than seven-score and ten years worth. I'm a medium and I know there's 'something more', but at the same time I have to put that into some kind of human context in order to grasp it. I don't see a problem with that.

Agree..

Originally Posted by Altair

Yes Greenslade, indeed.
I'm not sure what you mean with your last bit though. Can you explain what you mean with ''how spiritual people are when they have the flu and a head-full of snot.'' ??

I came out with a phrase quite a while ago and used it in the forums to make a point. It was a bit of fun with serious undertones, but one member deliberately misquoted me and another derided me for the misquote. Personally I thought it was funny. The quote was "The Spirituality of sitting on the toilet" and the point of that was to argue that the physical and the Spiritual are not separate, but Spirituality was dependant on things like eating and digestive processes and even mentality and psychology. And a headful of snot doesn't make one feel blissfully Spiritual.

Originally Posted by Altair

A mentality that often seems related to one's sense of morality. When people suggest it is mere action-reaction they're having a laugh. If it were that simple than there would be no consequences of you hitting a mosquito, but many believers insist that there is, and you've been doing a bad deed. They suggest there are consequences to such deeds, which ironically means no living being can ever break free of karma as life feeds on life.

This is the understanding that's missing, karma isn't the 'full picture' it's only a part of it. Originally karma meant 'action' then later it became 'cause and effect' - what's been termed as Newtonian Spirituality because it's 'mechanical'. Sometime later the ethical component was added and it became what it is today - reward and punishment mentality. The 'consequences' come not from karma but kamma-vipaka, and when you understand that you understand karma better. Kamma means 'intention' and it's energetic, your intentions are dependant on your vibrations and what you intend to do. Vipaka means 'results' and the results depend on the vibrations of your intentions. For instance..... You give someone information and your intentions are that you give them that information because of a genuine intention to help them understand, because after all "I am because we are" and it makes the Universe a better place. Or you give then the information because it makes you feel superior. Both of those are the same action but with very different intentions and therefore different 'results' or outcome for you.



There's also a lot more to the bigger picture since you mentioned consequences. In Spirit you agreed to punch my lights out to teach me a lesson and I agreed to that to become a better person. Also bear in mind howe you'd feel about agreeing to that, because that would go against your nature. We meet as humans and you decide not to beat my brains out because it's unethical. Now what?

Originally Posted by Altair

I agree. One can also see an evolution of religion, from a focus on animal and plant spirits to more human-animal hybridization, to gods and goddesses with personalities, to eventually a psychological reduction where happy feelings and blissful states of being take prominence.

This obviously intermingled but I find it interesting because what we believe is a reflection of our times. Today many people who call themselves spiritual have adopted eastern beliefs, which never would've happened without all the Hindu missionaries in the 20th century. Our experiences do not come in a vacuum. Today on this forum people argue over Eastern concepts. If this was the year 1400 and we had the internet we would interpret all this mysticism as the Holy Spirit and there would be no room for ''samsara'', holy cows or ''spider collects karma for eating the bug''.

As a side note, I don't know if you are familiar with neurologist Sam Harris. He has experimentally studied eastern mysticism for years, and comes from a scientific perspective. He recognizes the value of spiritual practice but also thinks it is necessary to avoid what he calls superstitions.

In the early days people personified aspects of the Universe and made extensive use of symbols to try and understand the metaphysical world they were trying to understand. This is where the Gods - and God himself - came from. We're still doing the same thing today but we're calling it karma - the psychological processes that were in place 'back then' are still in place today.

It's been said that every religion was right for that people at that time, so yes, today's Spirituality is a reflection of our times. And yes to the events leading to the popularity of Eastern culture in Western culture, and don't forget the celebs who made having their own gurus popular, because even today there is still an expansion dues to perceptual kudos. Not much has changed really.


He's not the only one that has recognised that Spiritual practices are important, because people are naturally Spiritual anyway and often that's an aspect that's been overlooked. Mental health services are adopting Spiritual practices as part of a regime of therapy. The problems occur when there is an imbalance where people, for example, ignore mental health issues and try to explain them away by coming out with all kinds of Spiritual denial and avoidance. That's not Spiritual at all. I can agree with him on superstitions, they're actually mental health issues - and Spirituality is not immune to those.

Originally Posted by Altair

Yes, I've looked a lot into that particular topic of escapism. Denial and escape are apt words, and important in many spiritual paths, and I don't mean to use those two words in a negative light here. Denial of certain pleasures or escaping them seems to be key in many spiritual paths. Ironically, some prominent denials ((food, orgasm, comfort)) lead to health decline (physical/'mental') and the symptoms may be confused for spiritual progress.

Neurologists have discovered that Spirituality and schizophrenia come from the same areas of the brain, and there are a few threads by the same member that highlights this very well. If you have a good toe-curling orgasm with the right person it can be a very Spiritual experience, and the brain releases chemicals that actually enhance areas. including the areas that 'process' Spirituality.

Originally Posted by Altair

Super appealing belief. We love agency.

Maybe it's because we don't realise that we are the agents.

Originally Posted by Altair

Agree..

When you get past the fog it all looks a little clearer.

[CosmicWonder]

Hii Altair and Greenslade, I read both your posts with so much fascination. I really enjoy it. Thanks!

Originally Posted by CosmicWonder

Hii Altair and Greenslade, I read both your posts with so much fascination. I really enjoy it. Thanks!

But you forgot the popcorn!!!!!

[CosmicWonder]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

But you forgot the popcorn!!!!!

Hahaha whoops!

[Altair]

@Greenslade....
I don't have much to add, but a few things to say here and there.

@digestive and other problems;

Intriguing, actually. It's an interesting topic, to talk about the spirituality of a head full of snot or a visit to a toilet. Can you still be at 'peace' or in bliss at those moments? I guess it depends on how severe things are. Not easy if you get toothache or are mauled by a bear.

Are you sure there was a thread about it because I don't remember? Just a post I assume..

@karma; Interesting that you would call karma as 'cause and effect' as Newtonian Spirituality. That does seem what it entails, even more so with the ethical component, I would say, as it is quite a mechanical view on morality.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It's been said that every religion was right for that people at that time, so yes, today's Spirituality is a reflection of our times. And yes to the events leading to the popularity of Eastern culture in Western culture, and don't forget the celebs who made having their own gurus popular, because even today there is still an expansion dues to perceptual kudos. Not much has changed really.

Indeed. There's a lot of focus on 'self growth' and self this, self that. We are becoming more individualistic and look for ways to reduce stress in our modern world. This is where ''mindfulness'' comes in.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

He's not the only one that has recognised that Spiritual practices are important, because people are naturally Spiritual anyway and often that's an aspect that's been overlooked. Mental health services are adopting Spiritual practices as part of a regime of therapy. The problems occur when there is an imbalance where people, for example, ignore mental health issues and try to explain them away by coming out with all kinds of Spiritual denial and avoidance. That's not Spiritual at all. I can agree with him on superstitions, they're actually mental health issues - and Spirituality is not immune to those.

Yes, I love this topic. You know some people consider their dizziness or lightness of head a ''spiritual sign'', but then check what they eat and it is a fat-deficient diet ((so not good for the brain)). Others will say poor digestion or bad teeth are ''detoxing processes''. If you lock a person in a dark room for days they can believe that they are God. There are many examples of health decline masquerading as 'spiritual progress'. My starting point is, if the body and mind are healthy then it will be easier to exclude the physiological explanations because I do think there are genuine experiences.

Originally Posted by Altair

@Greenslade....
I don't have much to add, but a few things to say here and there.

@digestive and other problems;

Intriguing, actually. It's an interesting topic, to talk about the spirituality of a head full of snot or a visit to a toilet. Can you still be at 'peace' or in bliss at those moments? I guess it depends on how severe things are. Not easy if you get toothache or are mauled by a bear.

Are you sure there was a thread about it because I don't remember? Just a post I assume..

@karma; Interesting that you would call karma as 'cause and effect' as Newtonian Spirituality. That does seem what it entails, even more so with the ethical component, I would say, as it is quite a mechanical view on morality.

Most people seem to think that Spirituality exists in splendid isolation, the fact is it doesn't. Good old human nature always exerts itself and if you start a thread on "What is Spirituality?" what you'll see is human nature. People separate Spirituality from everything else then talk about how all is one and there is no separation. What they don't realise is how separate from themselves and the rest of the world they've become.


If you look at the posts it's quite 'mechanical', as though it's a machine that produces results - bad stuff in, bit of a churn around and bad stuff out again. Much of Spirituality is the same way, if you look closely enough. When people don't get the results they expect they call it karma from a past life or 'negative energies'. It's a bit like go to work, earn wages, pay bills.

Originally Posted by Altair

Indeed. There's a lot of focus on 'self growth' and self this, self that. We are becoming more individualistic and look for ways to reduce stress in our modern world. This is where ''mindfulness'' comes in.

Today's Spirituality is a reflection of today's society, which is driven by today's people. People are becoming more isolated from each other and more importantly themselves, and frankly Spirituality doesn't help because often all it does is redirect the focus away from the root of the problem - people's own perceptual reality and how it is 'constructed'. It's the Spirituality of cognitive disorders. Mindfulness helps but so does right thinking and this is a point I would make. People only want to talk about Spirituality but few want to talk about what's going on in their heads, and that's where the real self happens.

Originally Posted by Altair

Yes, I love this topic. You know some people consider their dizziness or lightness of head a ''spiritual sign'', but then check what they eat and it is a fat-deficient diet ((so not good for the brain)). Others will say poor digestion or bad teeth are ''detoxing processes''. If you lock a person in a dark room for days they can believe that they are God. There are many examples of health decline masquerading as 'spiritual progress'. My starting point is, if the body and mind are healthy then it will be easier to exclude the physiological explanations because I do think there are genuine experiences.

Which is all about the Spirituality of sitting on the toilet the understanding that Spirituality doesn't exist in splendid isolation at all. There's an almighty rush to be Spiritual but there's no elimination of the human factor because the human factors are ignored - and that becomes Spirituality. So while it actually falls out of the remit of Spirituality - ignorance of 'non-Spiritual' factors - it is Spirituality in that this is the reality they create and their existential experience. Such as.....
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...d.php?t=136451
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...d.php?t=136880
A tale of how mental health issues and Spirituality don't make good bed partners.

The problems happen when you try to separate Spirituality from everything else because like it or not, if you think about Spirituality or have any beliefs at all they've been processed by what's in your noggin. That in turn has been affected by your Life experience from they day you were born almost, and your perceptions of it. But if you are a Spiritual being doesn't that mean that everything you experience is a Spiritual experience? If they are your experiences as a Spiritual being, can they be anything but Spiritual? Unless, of course, denial/dissociation is doing its thing. Can a Spiritual being have a non-Spiritual experience or is that the mind at work?

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Most people seem to think that Spirituality exists in splendid isolation, the fact is it doesn't. Good old human nature always exerts itself and if you start a thread on "What is Spirituality?" what you'll see is human nature. People separate Spirituality from everything else then talk about how all is one and there is no separation. What they don't realise is how separate from themselves and the rest of the world they've become.

Hi Greenslade,
The interesting bit for me right there is in separating the spirituality from the non-spirituality, often by spiritual paths that teach oneness and are pantheistic. If 'all = god' than that would include matter and all intricate relationships that makes us who we are, including body, thoughts, feelings, history, our environments.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

If you look at the posts it's quite 'mechanical', as though it's a machine that produces results - bad stuff in, bit of a churn around and bad stuff out again. Much of Spirituality is the same way, if you look closely enough. When people don't get the results they expect they call it karma from a past life or 'negative energies'. It's a bit like go to work, earn wages, pay bills.

That's how it feels indeed.
The 'mechanical' side is IMO largely a consequence of civilization. We've seen a sharp increase in dependency on technology in the 21st century and with it comes a highly structured, predictable society where everything is accounted for. Ironically, many of our spiritual traditions ((hunter-gatherer beliefs less so)) are predictable in how we manage them and practice them, such as through strict rituals on specific days, holidays, times during the day, and strict guidelines that one is to follow. They are structured and predictable ((believe this, go to heaven; do this practice 1000x, get enlightened)). If I check some meditation retreats they specifically mention you can't do any other practice ((no yoga for example)). By their standardization they mimic science in a way ((a dependent and independent)), however the object of study is the self, whom experiences reality differently and has different genes and history, and therefore it can't produce the standards of rigorous standards of natural science ((although people will often place their experience within the same context, i.e. all church-goers say bliss comes from the Holy Spirit, and Jains will say it comes from Atman)).

I think what is really going on with all these traditions is that we are looking into the mirror and we see a civilized species. How would one's spirituality be like if one grew up among wolves, with no possibility of relating to other humans and not developing language? Much of whom we are is what we have learned.

If you drop civilization our spirituality would look different, more wild, intuitive and although there's obviously structure it doesn't quite match the incredible heights of structure and predictability that we have developed since then. This mechanical aspect returns in our religions and spiritual traditions. One can't really understand a religion or path without its environmental context, nor the psychology of its founders and culture, and the things that 'tick' them.

Originally Posted by Altair

Hi Greenslade,
The interesting bit for me right there is in separating the spirituality from the non-spirituality, often by spiritual paths that teach oneness and are pantheistic. If 'all = god' than that would include matter and all intricate relationships that makes us who we are, including body, thoughts, feelings, history, our environments.

Hey there Altair

Yeah, and that includes sitting on the toilet? Sorry, couldn't help myself. The Spiritual vs non-Spiritual has nothing to to with Spirituality per se, people declare themselves as Spiritual beings in relation to their definitions and often those definitions are as much agenda as anything else. Or worse, something psychological. Everybody has a personal history, thinking patterns, Shadow Self..... and personally I think it's very naive that none of those have anything to do with Spirituality. Sometimes self-awareness isn't.

Originally Posted by Altair

That's how it feels indeed.
The 'mechanical' side is IMO largely a consequence of civilization. We've seen a sharp increase in dependency on technology in the 21st century and with it comes a highly structured, predictable society where everything is accounted for. Ironically, many of our spiritual traditions ((hunter-gatherer beliefs less so)) are predictable in how we manage them and practice them, such as through strict rituals on specific days, holidays, times during the day, and strict guidelines that one is to follow. They are structured and predictable ((believe this, go to heaven; do this practice 1000x, get enlightened)). If I check some meditation retreats they specifically mention you can't do any other practice ((no yoga for example)). By their standardization they mimic science in a way ((a dependent and independent)), however the object of study is the self, whom experiences reality differently and has different genes and history, and therefore it can't produce the standards of rigorous standards of natural science ((although people will often place their experience within the same context, i.e. all church-goers say bliss comes from the Holy Spirit, and Jains will say it comes from Atman)).

I think what is really going on with all these traditions is that we are looking into the mirror and we see a civilized species. How would one's spirituality be like if one grew up among wolves, with no possibility of relating to other humans and not developing language? Much of whom we are is what we have learned.

If you drop civilization our spirituality would look different, more wild, intuitive and although there's obviously structure it doesn't quite match the incredible heights of structure and predictability that we have developed since then. This mechanical aspect returns in our religions and spiritual traditions. One can't really understand a religion or path without its environmental context, nor the psychology of its founders and culture, and the things that 'tick' them.

It's been said that every religion was right for that people at that time, and Spirituality has become religious because it's more centred on ideologies and theologies rather than existential experience. You could argue that it's relative to one's own definition of Spirituality but if that's the case, doesn't that tell you something? And when Spirituality has to fit in with our lifestyle and is compartmentalised? Is that a reflection of modern society, either in the way we as a collective have created it or how as an environment it's had an effect on us?

Scientists are often multidisciplinary, someone who studies one branch of science often has extensive knowledge of other branches of science because of the relationships between them - this is the reason you're in this forum. A guy called Tim Berners-Lee found out that often scientists were working on a problem and had to account for engineering problems that might have been solved by someone else, or look to another branch of science because that was affecting their work. That's why the world wide web was invented. although at the time it was what is known today as an intranet.

People having to only practice they way a specific retreat says so has nothing to do with science, it's probably more of a control mechanism or a way to keep you going back to that same retreat, in the way that the only road to salvation is to worship God. Today the only road to salvation is through Spirituality and the rites and rituals therein, and if you're not awake and aware - anyone can declare themselves those because there are no standards to achieve - then you're a lesser mortal. There's no consideration that you are who and what you are because that's the person you need to be for your particular existential experience.

Gobekli Tepe is so far the oldest structure known the man. It was built at a time when we were hunter-gatherers and has thrown much of our perceptions out of the window. One of the big questions Gobekli Tepe asks is in a time of small, scattered and largely isolated groups of people, how was it built considering the scale and the logistics?

One of the things that's not known about our past is that there was a collective consciousness happening across geography and time, and many cultures - some 495 according to Graham Hancock - have traditions based on the very same themes. Eastern religions, Irish myths and native north and south American Indians all followed the same traditions, even though it was geographically impossible for them to have had contact at that time. yet there they were, they had a language and in most cases it was very rudimentary, and few of them had writing yet they all shared traditions before contact was possible.
Today we have -

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...d.php?t=136531

Did someone mention Spiritual evolution/advancement?