How do thoughts arise ... along with duality?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

What is your understanding of "self, no self. Mind and no mind"?
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As we touched upon beyond the silence, that in my eyes is beyond the mind and beyond the self . This is the only instance it refers too .

You can't have thoughts arise if there is no thinker, no experiencer, no observer etc .

How can a thought arise, it can't . There has to be a central location in self awareness for a thought to arise or land so to speak . There has to be a point of origin .

When one eventually returns within self awareness after transcending the mindful self, then one regains a self presence, a sense of oneself .. Thoughts automatically return in reflection of this, in accordance of this .



x daz x

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by iamthat

I agree, although regarding terminology I usually prefer subconscious/superconscious to unconscious.


And superconscious relates to those thoughts and impressions which originate from the Higher Self or spiritual intuition.



Sometimes we can reach a stage where the mantra itself becomes another mental disturbance, and it is far more preferable to let go of the mantra and abide in the silence.

Your word preferences of subconscious/superconscious (with your accompanying explanations) do indeed seem to be a better choice than the psychological "unconscious" terminology.

This brings to mind a fun story involving Nisargadatta who was once asked how he got into his "superconscious state". He repeatedly denied that he was in a superconscious state. Finally, when pressed for an explanation, he responded: "The state that I'm in is simply the NORMAL state; I don't know what state you've gotten yourself in."

Regarding your comment on mantras, I agree with you that, while mantras are indeed very helpful, there is a point at which "it is far more preferable to let go of the mantra and abide in the silence".

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 11 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by God-Like

As we touched upon beyond the silence, that in my eyes is beyond the mind and beyond the self .

You can't have thoughts arise if there is no thinker, no experiencer, no observer etc .

One eventually does go beyond the primal "I AM" to the Silence ... but Silence does not seem to be the Ultimate as one can quiet mental activity and still have no awareness whatsoever.

Using traditional terminology (for lack of better words), there is a point at which one "surrenders" to the "expanded consciousness" and knows WITHOUT THINKING intuitively how best to proceed in the best interests of all. Initially, one may simply have FAITH that this is the optimal way for one's Self but, once one recognizes that as an unerring guide which is far more reliable than the limited self-created gestalt commonly called the ego, the faith transforms into CONFIDENCE which progresses to TRUST which inevitably leads to SURRENDER. That has been my experience, and it would be interesting to hear anything that you can share regarding this. Everyone is different and everyone seems to approach the proverbial mountain top in different ways.

This seems to be consistent with your statement that: "You can't have thoughts arise if there is no thinker, no experiencer, no observer etc ."

NOTE: I should add that my teacher served as a catalyst in this progression as I might not have not directly proceeded in this manner without her challenges to explore this.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

This brings to mind a fun story involving Nisargadatta who was once asked how he got into his "superconscious state". He repeatedly denied that he was in a superconscious state. Finally, when pressed for an explanation, he responded: "The state that I'm in is simply the NORMAL state; I don't know what state you've gotten yourself in."

Ha!

Peace

[iamthat]

Going back to the original question of "How do thoughts arise?", there is a certain spiritual teacher who says that our thoughts are not our own. We simply exist in a mental field where thought exists; particular thoughts pass through our awareness and we think that these thoughts are ours.

I have some issues with this approach - it seems too random. The thoughts which arise within my awareness usually pertain to practical aspects of my life or they are abstract ponderings on topics of particular interest to me or they are reactions to something perceived externally, such as a story on TV. I do not find myself suddenly thinking of things which have no connection to me.

It may be that we inhabit an environment filled with thoughts and we are all like radios tuned to different frequencies, so we receive thoughts which correspond to these frequencies. Or it may be that we do not receive specific thoughts but instead we pick up on certain energies which our mental apparatus converts into thoughts which are relevant to ourselves.

All this is open to question. But it is strange that we each probably have thousands of thoughts every day and yet the nature and origin of these thoughts is such a mystery.

And a final thought on the stopping of thoughts. One difficulty I have found in myself is a subtle attachment to thinking. I am naturally quite mental, and the world of thoughts is both comfortable and familiar. Holding my awareness in a state of no-thought and preventing the next thought from arising is stepping way from that which is comfortable and familiar, even though I enjoy the peaceful relief from the incessant mental chatter.

Just some thoughts.

Peace

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 11 EXCERPT:
One eventually does go beyond the primal "I AM" to the Silence ... but Silence does not seem to be the Ultimate as one can quiet mental activity and still have no awareness whatsoever.

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You still seem to be referring to different layers of the mind in my eyes, which always self reflects within awareness . What do you refer too when there is beyond the silence and beyond the mindful self .

When you say one can quiet the mental activity, do you mean one can transcend it? I say this because one cannot be thinking at all but one will be of the mind . Mindfully aware .. You can't still be of the mind and have no self awareness . You have to transcend self and mind completely .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

self-created gestalt commonly called the ego, the faith transforms into CONFIDENCE which progresses to TRUST which inevitably leads to SURRENDER. That has been my experience, and it would be interesting to hear anything that you can share regarding this.

At a point of suffering I enquired into that . I had no choice I had to go within and self heal, meditate and do yoga . My mum did the same at a point in her life and went the whole mile into fasting and day and night yoga sleeping for only a few hours a night for 40 years ..

There was no choice either for her and I think when you are completely ready for something there is no choice at all .

The process at a certain stage takes care of itself, it's like you are getting absorbed a little more each day into oneself, into Self or God or whatever word suits .

When I transcended there was no surrender, it was like the apple falling from the tree with nothing left to hold on to .

You do have an integrated energy that reflects faith and trust because like said above there is nothing to hold on to regarding the ego ..


x daz x

Originally Posted by iamthat

particular thoughts pass through our awareness and we think that these thoughts are ours.

Which is also what happens with beliefs. Depending on the study, there is something like a 20-90ms lapse between the unconscious - where thoughts and beliefs come from - and us being conscious of them. However, sometimes we may never become conscious of them. It's in that gap where we perceive that the thought or belief is 'ours'. As to whether or not the thoughts are ours or not depend on your model of the self. Spiritually-speaking thoughts and beliefs are not 'us' but are karas or 'invented things' - roughly the 'things' of perceptual/created reality.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by iamthat

I have some issues with this approach - it seems too random. The thoughts which arise within my awareness usually pertain to practical aspects of my life or they are abstract ponderings on topics of particular interest to me or they are reactions to something perceived externally, such as a story on TV. I do not find myself suddenly thinking of things which have no connection to me.

It's a mixture of all aspects .. As a medium, I know when thoughts are my own or not . I know that as I type to you now, my cogs are turning and I am creating thoughts ..

Sometimes there is a frequency or a vibration of something that can be tuned into consciously or not, that contains certain themes about the world at large .

You find that many have a very similar vision or intuitive feeling .



x daz x

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

the faith transforms into CONFIDENCE which progresses to TRUST which inevitably leads to SURRENDER

Where do all of those come from?