Atheism is a Religion

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I find it mighty odd that one can have a belief system in place that allows them to cherry pick what they believe and what they don't and then say it's not a belief in that which they don't believe in

It doesn't matter what it refers to, it can be Santa .

So a dude has a foundation in place that knows what Santa refers to in order to disbelieve it .

Of course. We know the santa story and don't believe it is true,

There has to be a belief system in place in order to discern what is true and what isn't, what exists and what doesn't.

Is there really a belief in santa just because we know the story?

A peep cannot simply make a statement about something or other that doesn't exist without believing that to be true / correct .

The difference is, they tell the religious story as if it is true, and we don't believe them. We all know the story, but they believe it's true and we don't.

What is that statement based upon if not what is comparable in some way with it's opposite .
Makes no sense to me for peeps to suggest otherwise .

x daz x

It's really simple. It's the same story, but they believe it and we don't.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Altair

Nope.

You focus on the identity of ''being a believer'' or ''being a believer in non-belief''. This is why you falsely proclaim one needs to have a belief in what god is or not. Atheists do not believe in god(s) whatsoever, whether they have given it a thought or not. If someone doesn't believe in god(s) then that person is an atheist. It's not important if and how much time you've spend on it. Likewise, if you do not believe in the tooth fairy you simply lack the belief in the tooth fairy. You don't ''believe in the nonexistence of the tooth fairy and are therefore still a believer''. That is illogical.

If you use logic and apply k.i.s.s. (keep it simple stupid) principle then you see atheists are non-believers, not ''believers of nonexistence of the existence of god''. Also, if you focused on the position and belief / lack of belief, instead of the identity of being theist or atheist, you would 'get it'.

It just pertains to what you think is true. If you think the toothfairy is true then you believe, if you don't think it's true then you don't. To say you think it is true that you don't think it is true is gobblygook.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hi Moonie

But what is it one doesn't know?

To not know means that one has an understanding and a belief that there is something that is not known based upon not having a realisation or a truth of God or Self .

So there can only be a complete unawareness of certain things to not entertain a belief structure .

How can a peep have a belief structure in place about God if he has never heard of God before .

Do you see what I mean .

If you know what God means and refers to then one automatically entertains a belief system about God per se .

One doesn't have to believe that God exists to have a belief in what God refers too .

If one has no idea of what God is then they can't say that God doesn't exist or they don't believe in God because they don't know what God is

This is why God as a label is so problematic, peeps have been fighting over God's reference for eons lol .

If one had a realisation that there is only what you are, then there would be no standing position of not believing in God, because they are that . There is only that .

As always, we need to understand what God refers too in order to believe in God or not ..


x daz x

Hi daz,

Yes, there needs to be a basic understanding of God to know what is being referred to.

What if one does not agree or believe what is being referred to, does he/she still hold a belief about it?

What is the belief of God(s) based upon?

Is it faith or a direct experience someone may have? As reflected with in these discussions not everyone has the same otlook. If lets just say everyone understands, will everyone believe what is being referred to?

It comes off as a personal and individual perspective. Some may see and feel it one way, so believe it. Others may not so do not hold a belief of it.

The ones not holding a belief in it do not think and perhaps feel it is true, thus no belief.

This does not say necessarily that God is true or not. It says there are those that simply do not believe God is real. They do not hold a belief system that may indicate/confirm or not in regards to God.

The person may hold an interest in what God may be or how God came to be, just for that person he/she has no belief system that God is real or true.

For some it comes across to me there s interest in what constitutes a God(s), because it is interesting to him/her. He/she may still not hold any personal belief about God, so may say there is no God.

At least this is how beliefs come across to me and how I experience them.
Yes, there is the thought to say something does not exist creates the existance of that something, but does not mean I will believe it is real or true. May be just a thought or idea. Or I simply don’t know.

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by pdizzle45

is a non-religious human being considered an atheist?

Well, not until someone slaps a label on you.

Originally Posted by God-Like

Well if we are to go by dictionary definitions then an atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. So suggesting that arguing about if God or Gods exists or not isn't nonsense because an atheist doesn't believe in the existence of them.

To have no belief in whether God exists or not and has no thought about God isn't an atheist according to the dictionary definition .

If I have no thoughts either way about whether or not the tooth fairy exists what does that label me lol .

All it reflects is that I have no thoughts regarding the tooth fairy at all .

This is what myself and JASG's have been pointing out.

What we are pointing out is simply one cannot sit either side of the fence and have a belief structured notion either way without being opinionated about why they sit where they do regarding the subject at hand .

This is why I gave a new babe as an example where the babe has no thought about God at all .

This is the blank canvas analogy . A blank canvas doesn't support someone who knows what God refers too and identifies with that to then say they have no beliefs in that .

This is completely different .

It reflects a peep that entertains a belief system in what God represents and constitutes. The reflects a peep that isn't devoid of having an opinion .

Hi there Dazza

My argument has always been that personally I don't have any beliefs in God either way, I neither believe he exists not believe he doesn't. And sometimes I'll use the label because I enjoy getting my sleeves rolled up in discussions such as these.

I don't have a belief in God's existence or not, I believe that what does exist is a belief in God that goes back to Sumer as far as Christianity is concerned. That isn't a belief in God. I'm not interested in believing in God or not, I'm interested in the belief of God and how that comes about.

What I've been saying is that I don't have beliefs in God either way and you've been saying I have. I guess that's because of your belief that atheists believe there isn't a God.

Originally Posted by God-Like

Yes, this is eggsactly what I have been saying. It's all I have been saying and implying. What you speak of derives through a belief system that reflects what God constitutes in whatever shape or form that is.

It means that you hold a belief in what God means or refers too in regards to what other's suggest to be true or not .

This understanding reflects a belief system in effect, that is why you can understand what God means to other's .


x daz x

What God means to other people is what interests me.

Originally Posted by God-Like

You see there is a misunderstanding here . I simply have stated that in order to entertain a notion and entertain a self reference for what God is or isn't one must entertain a foundation where one has a belief system in effect .

Which is my argument about the non-existence of God - arguing that God doesn't exist is an admission that God exists.

Originally Posted by God-Like

To label oneself an atheist clearly illustrates that one has an opinion in what God is or isn't . You have clearly demonstrated this to be true in regards to what you understand God to mean to other's .

That's your belief of what atheists believes, and you can't seem to get past it. This is also one of the reasons I enjoy these kinds of discussions so much, it's because the theists seem to think they are experts on atheism. To state my position very clearly.... I am an atheist because I choose to wear that label for the purpose of discussion, and as an atheist I don't have any beliefs as to what God is or isn't. This particular atheist is interested in what God means to others, and so far that seems to be an inability for theists to understand the other side of the same coin. I'll use the word 'God' for the sake of discussion only, otherwise there is only confusion. Using the word 'God' does not imply a belief in God.

Originally Posted by pdizzle45

is a non-religious human being considered an atheist?

Atheist is non-theist, that's what the word means, and theism is belief in God. Religious is the practice of theism. although some people practice non-theist subjects religiously.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Gem

It just pertains to what you think is true. If you think the toothfairy is true then you believe, if you don't think it's true then you don't. To say you think it is true that you don't think it is true is gobblygook.

Indeed.
Believing in the non-existence of something or believing that you don't believe is gobbledegook. What happens is when you lack belief you are a 0, not a 1. This is also why the burden of proof rests on the person that makes the claim something exists (''1 exists!''). Atheists don't have a belief in non-belief in God(s), they lack it to begin with.

It's applying simplicity, or parsimony. No need to make things unnecessarily complicated (''You believe in that you don't believe!'').

The thread title is another strange beastie... ((as religion is about 'communion with the divine', and I would add, a set of organized beliefs concerning the supernatural)). Atheism gets misunderstood and put as some 'second option' next to religion but it's on a whole different page.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi daz,

Yes, there needs to be a basic understanding of God to know what is being referred to.

What if one does not agree or believe what is being referred to, does he/she still hold a belief about it?

Hi M.G.

It's just common sense isn't it, to have an understanding of what God is being referred too, but in many cases it doesn't seem to matter lol, but if we are to get to the heart of the disbelief in God then one surely must have some idea as to why it doesn't resonate .

This is the whole difference in what I have being saying about this because a peep that doesn't know of God or what God conceptually means then one is completely oblivious and is ignorant .

The peep that holds beliefs about God and disbelieves in God has to entertain a belief system in order to do that .

Again, this is common sense .

The one that disbelieves in God still holds a belief in God in order to disbelieve otherwise it wouldn't register .

This is why I spoke about earlier on that a baby doesn't hold a belief in God, the baby doesn't disbelieve in God because God doesn't register .

To label oneself as an atheist has to entertain a belief system in what that even means and how it reflects upon themselves ..

x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

Of course. We know the santa story and don't believe it is true, Is there really a belief in santa just because we know the story? The difference is, they tell the religious story as if it is true, and we don't believe them. We all know the story, but they believe it's true and we don't. It's really simple. It's the same story, but they believe it and we don't.

What I have said is that one has to have and hold a belief system about God and Santa in order to disbelieve or believe .

The belief that one holds to be true about God can be anything, but it doesn't negate the belief had in God .

x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there Dazza

My argument has always been that personally I don't have any beliefs in God either way, I neither believe he exists not believe he doesn't. And sometimes I'll use the label because I enjoy getting my sleeves rolled up in discussions such as these.

I don't have a belief in God's existence or not, I believe that what does exist is a belief in God that goes back to Sumer as far as Christianity is concerned. That isn't a belief in God. I'm not interested in believing in God or not, I'm interested in the belief of God and how that comes about.

What I've been saying is that I don't have beliefs in God either way and you've been saying I have. I guess that's because of your belief that atheists believe there isn't a God..

Hey G.S.

Well I did roll out the dictionary version of an Atheist which refers to not believing in the existence of God .

You refer to yourself as an Atheist but you say you don't have an opinion if God exists or not .

I don't care who is an atheist or who isn't, I don't care if one believes in the personal God or not either

You do have a belief in God as such because you have referred to God as Enki .

You don't have to believe it to be true to hold a belief about God .

I haven't said anything different and I specifically said that the belief in God that you have refers to what other's believe to be true .

I am not saying you have a belief that is true that refers to God in any shape or form .

If someone told me they don't give two hoots about if God exists or not or what God is or isn't, then I wouldn't label them an Atheist .

To be honest the whole Atheist scene doesn't really interest me that much, each to their own on that score, what I am more interested in is the mind and how beliefs are formed and created and how people behave in relation to them .

What I am seeing is that peeps don't really understand how belief systems work when disbelieving .

There has to be a fundamental belief in order to disbelieve . So you fundamentally hold a belief about God in order to disbelieve in God .

The new born baby like said above doesn't disbelieve in God nor does it believe in God because there is no self reference for God .

This is different to that of a man that holds a belief in God and then decides to disbelieve and then label themselves an Atheist .

I have spoken about these differences a lot to no avail .

x daz x