Oneness and Emptiness

[keepitsimple]

Anyone want to discuss oneness and emptiness, and what the relationship is between them .. ?

How do Samadhi and Nirvana relate to oneness and emptiness?

What i want to know is if in mainline buddhism, or in your individual opinion, - oneness and emptiness are the same thing?

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by keepitsimple

What i want to know is if in mainline buddhism, or in your individual opinion, - oneness and emptiness are the same thing?

I'd say neither exist in any real sense. They are just concepts. Concepts have no objective reality outside the mind.

[keepitsimple]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I'd say neither exist in any real sense. They are just concepts. Concepts have no objective reality outside the mind.

well ok that's interesting, so, do nirvana and samadhi exist in a real sense or are they just concepts? -

[LadyMay]

Well, oneness is something, and emptiness is nothing... considering non-duality, these two are not at odds with each other but are two parts of the same whole... right?

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by keepitsimple

well ok that's interesting, so, do nirvana and samadhi exist in a real sense or are they just concepts? -

Words are all symbols for something else. Pointers. We ourselves have unique experiences of whatever the words point to. We are all unique. Like take the word lemon. "Lemon" as a word or idea does not exist in any real sense as it is a pointer to something actual that one can experience in their own unique way. Right now, somewhere on this planet persons are experiencing "lemon" in their own unique way. One person is working on a farm picking lemons and thinking about a fight they had with their partner that morning. Somebody else just got lemon juice in their eye squeezing a lemon and is running to the shower to wash it out, somebody else is making a drink with a lemon in it, somebody else is cutting up a lemon to put on mold in their shower. What is a "lemon?" In the real sense it is not one thing, it is certainly not a concept, it is a real direct thing one can experience in their own way. It is an experience unique to the individual, with a unique "lemon," that all involves a particular kind of fruit. I'd also point out that all these experiences may or may not involve words or concepts or thinking.

For samadhi, nirvana, oneness, or emptiness to exist in a real sense and not just be a concept, one has to experience them directly in some way.

I can say what those words represent to me as experience. Well actually I have not memorized what those words officially represent so I need to look them up. Ok google search:

samadhi- a state of intense concentration achieved through meditation. In Hindu yoga this is regarded as the final stage, at which union with the divine is reached (before or at death)

No interest in that definition or concept as I am not a seeker of anything that is not already here. We are already in union with the divine, we are the substance of the divine. It's not something "we" achieve. What we do achieve is the realization of what we are as we are instead identified with what we are not. "Final stage?" um no lol. Sounds lofty though, like becoming a superhero.

nirvana - (in Buddhism) a transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth. It represents the final goal of Buddhism

Wrong. We are the self so how could we lose a sense of that? It is self evident we exist. Not the final goal. Yes we are "transcendent" or use simpler word, not "identified" with, the "ego." Some truth in there, some non-sense.

oneness - that's simple, it's an experience unique to the "object" or totality I am experiencing or referencing with that word. Obviously a "oneness" with another person is different than the oneness I may experience with a tree. Then also the word can represent a state of myself without a center or "person" sourced through conditioning and thought.

emptiness - that is simple as well, I'd explain it like this. There is a room before you enter it. After you enter it, is is unchanged. The room you experience is the same one that existed before you entered it. You are not adding content that was not there before you entered. However, consciousness has entered and the attributes of consciousness itself are therefore present, but aspects of "ego" are not.

[Phaelyn]

The concept of "oneness" is sometimes misunderstood in my opinion. Like I can go to a gathering where lots of people are and go there with no opinions, or beliefs, or judgments, or interpretations, or personal bias, and just enjoy the people. Have no agenda or point of view and just interact and listen to others. Enjoy their energy and passion and light inside us all. I can also view and experience them as the exact same thing as me, consciousness's identified with various mental content. Some may be aware the content is not them and others may not be aware of this. So there is an experience of oneness there, of love, compassion and empathy, unity. Me and them are the same. Perhaps trapped under different baggage, different cultures and conditioning, but under all the superficial stuff, we are all the same, divine light, the same pure consciousness, love. That can be my perception and experience.

Then I can go outside free of thought and thinking, empty of mind, (but quite full of myself) and sense being a part of it all, the light, the air, nature, everything is me and I am it, no word, thought, idea, is becoming between me and pure experience of "this."

But none of what I said means I somehow perceive that I am another person or that I am a tree. That's just non-sense. We are always self aware, self is present, and our own existence is self evident. I can be aware of another as being of the same nature as myself and still be completely aware me and them are unique individual points of perception. I can experience a tree as it is, directly, not through the filters of mind or ego, and still be totally aware it has an existence apart from me. I can know we are the same inside and still know we are all unique.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by LadyMay

Well, oneness is something, and emptiness is nothing... considering non-duality, these two are not at odds with each other but are two parts of the same whole... right?

Yes, from emptiness I experience oneness.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

Emptiness. Definitely yes.

We empty out that that we recognise as ephemeral, perishable. Everything goes out!

It may take time however because of attachment rooted in mind-body association. So it is done layer by layer, until we reside in emptiness as our default orientation. Vibrant, poised, still & unexpectant.

We may call this all time meditation without interruption. Automatically enabled simply by our prioritisation to connect with our own divinity within.

Samadhi. We don’t get to it. It comes to us. If we allow. If we are empty within. Meanwhile, why not revel in rapturous exhilarating bliss?

***

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

***

Emptiness. Definitely yes.

We empty out that that we recognise as ephemeral, perishable. Everything goes out!

It may take time however because of attachment rooted in mind-body association. So it is done layer by layer, until we reside in emptiness as our default orientation. Vibrant, poised, still & unexpectant.

We may call this all time meditation without interruption. Automatically enabled simply by our prioritisation to connect with our own divinity within.

Samadhi. We don’t get to it. It comes to us. If we allow. If we are empty within. Meanwhile, why not revel in rapturous exhilarating bliss?

***

This is how my experience would describe it. Vibrant,poised still & unexpectant- that’s a nice description.

[keepitsimple]

Wow! thanks for the response.

I'd like to pull all those ideas together, and find out how to communicate with modern Buddhists, but i'm not sure if i can.

I also checked Nirvana in the wikipedia and found it defined by what it's not : freedom from suffering, having overcome karmic repetitions. I wonder what concepts Buddha was up against back in those days, maybe he couldn't call it oneness because this automatically implied oneness with the divine. I would really love to find an old Buddhist text which refers to oneness ...

Trying to get Buddhists to agree on a goal is hard work, is pure awareness the goal?

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

Samadhi. We don’t get to it. It comes to us. If we allow. If we are empty within.

While i like this i don't really get it.

And yes, Yoga and Hinduism talk of Samadhi with other meanings. In the 8th step of the eightfold path the Pali word is sammāsamādhi or right Samadhi. In the Mahasatipatthana, the description of sammāsamādhi is all about different stages of absorption. So shouldnt Samadhi be something to do with absorption?

To be able to think clearly we need clear words, - for clear comprehension and investigation of reality we need clear words.

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

For samadhi, nirvana, oneness, or emptiness to exist in a real sense and not just be a concept, one has to experience them directly in some way.

ok. so concepts are the result of us splitting the world into bits, which we all have different relationships with. So maybe we should be talking about our personal experiences.

Oneness and emptiness come in many different degrees and forms.

Emptiness is something i know as an internal body feeling, as though there is just empty space inside my body. There is no relationship to actual space, i sometimes feel my body is as big as the room - sometimes very small. Anyone else with such experiences?

Originally Posted by JustBe

Vibrant,poised still & unexpectant- that’s a nice description.

i dont get the vibrant - but it's very alive, and now.

I suspect there are many different forms. And it's worth mentioning that my main experiences come from when i was between 11 and 16 yrs. old, before i read anything about it. It was habitual, at nights before sleep, i would breathe and feel my whole body expanding and contracting – i think it was also connected with a sense of seeing and hearing inside my own body. There was nothing mystical, i was very naive (didn't even realise we had lungs till i was 17 or 18).

This emptiness was more real than anything i was learning in school, or our culture – so when i found taoism and then buddhism i felt the connection, but since then, well i guess it's been a long downward path as i learnt more.

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

there is an experience of oneness there, of love, compassion and empathy, unity. Me and them are the same. Perhaps trapped under different baggage, different cultures and conditioning, but under all the superficial stuff, we are all the same, divine light, the same pure consciousness, love.

Love – now there's a word i didn't expect in a buddhist forum - i suspect it is usually called compassion – (which means something else these days). Love between 2 people, as in the christian sense, seems never to be mentioned in the texts(?). Also empathy - if the word had existed in Buddhas day – how would he have used it?

Sometimes occasionally, i get a feeling of connectedness, unity for a group of people, but it's only a mental feeling ...

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

But none of what I said means I somehow perceive that I am another person or that I am a tree.

The once i experienced oneness was when i felt my skin was the room and everything in it. I was the room and there was no sense of emptiness, it was rather a fullness.

Both emptiness and oneness in my recent (after childhood) experience, are very connected with letting go and giving selflessly (praying for others).

An interesting distinction may be that with the feelings of oneness my eyes were open, with emptiness they are closed.

So, any ideas or experiences, anyone?