What is Karma? How does it work?

Originally Posted by Busby

For me karma doesn't exist.
How could it.
Where and what is the 'mechanism' that oversees or manages the extremely complicated links, processes and procedures that form a result?
If you accept karma then you'll will have to agree to a number of exclusively karmic (as opposed to accidents, which apparently don't exist if karma does) small to large events in the world, say the sinking of the Titanic.
If you are going to use the Titanic as a result of karma and then investigate what it needs to fulfil any karmic happening involving the Titanic then you'll be faced with a whole series of impossible to explain presumptions, conjectures and hypothesis.
In other words to complete the karmic repercussions gathered or earned by those people (whether afterwards dead or alive) on that ship the karmic master or planner - whoever that might be would have to start planning very early.
'His' first step would have to be to get someone to decide to build a suitable ship, then he'd have to think about getting a maybe not even existing ice-mass to calve an iceberg at the right time to be in the right place at the right time with all those individuals who 'he' has decided should live out the results of their actions. 'He'd' also have to ensure that all those 'called' booked their passages and that their cabins (for instance) were in the right position for the karmic outcome.

It never ends.

It would also mean that there is such a thing as destiny - and that is the last thing we want when we talk of freedom - especially when we talk of free will. Free will has to be open-ended otherwise it isn't free will.

No, the world is full of co-incidences and accidents, always was and always will be.

The real actions (as acknowledged as being intrinsic to karma) are those actions which take place in the process of evolution and are so carried over as part of the universal mind.

R the 2 mutually exclusive?

Can there not be some free will and some will that is forced upon us? Some destinies that are not as destined, that can be thwarted if we learn to see them approaching?

"Mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan.

I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floatin' around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happenin' at the same time. "

Forest Gump

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

In essence the only way to escape Karma is through Enlightenment, at which point it's fully realized as part of Maya, part of the illusion.

The approach I take is that of a Jnani (I Am Self / Witness Consciousness) and therefore I practice Karma Yoga as Witness of action and not doer of action. Mind acts and body acts and I am Awareness simply witnessing said action.That's not to say I'm at a point where I'm resting in that state of Awareness 24x7, however I practice as often as I remember and it also dovetails nicely with my two other main practices of Jnana (knowledge) and Raja (resting in awareness/do nothing meditation).

All three practices leverage and build on what I already realized. It's a work in progress.

Is there still free will there?

Is it just a matter of realizing one is watching the TV and not fooling oneself into believing they are the main character?

Though I must say, it does sound like a good way out of my karma. Perhaps I will sneak in and grab a piece of Ms. H's triple chocolate cake (maybe the whole thing) and wolf it down, washing it down with one of her martinis. If she becomes angry I shall tell her I witnessed the actions, but I was not the doer.
This Jnani sounds like I can have my cake and eat it too. If anyone objects, I will just change the channel

[lemex]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Is there still free will there?

So true, but keep in mind free will is potential and so always exists, QM. Also, realize, free will in not needed to live.

Originally Posted by lemex

How does one determine in advance of the next life, it would be asking what did I learn from the last one. Even now we can't (or won't) say. The wording is incorrect maybe, and should be what are you resolving. It is a mistake to think in terms of completed, without effort I only know I have not completed it but in one simple term, karma may provide choice and opportunity. It is even larger then we thought.


If you are asking what I am learning, then I could tell you.

Well, you are a particular fellow. Very well then, for you present participle it shall be. What R U learning then?
Have you not finished any subject matter at all?

[lemex]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Well, you are a particular fellow. Very well then, for you present participle it shall be. What R U learning then?
Have you not finished any subject matter at all?

It's been said many times here by others and I'd say that. Will I make it easy, no. Others seem to know as well. Absolutely have not finished. Had to laugh at impatience. And my saying it will not change that. We all have that experience. I would say we all should listen to what experience says, simply be mindful.

Originally Posted by lemex

So true, but keep in mind free will is potential and so always exists, QM. Also, realize, free will in not needed to live.

Perhaps, but what if Everette is right, and the universe is fully deterministic?
Where is choice and free will then?

Or even if the Copenhagen'ers are right. Is it not then just a matter of random chance?

Where is Karma then? Deterministically baked into the smoothly evolving quantum wave function, or just chance in the roll of God's dice?

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Originally Posted by ketzer

Is there still free will there?

Is it just a matter of realizing one is watching the TV and not fooling oneself into believing they are the main character?

Though I must say, it does sound like a good way out of my karma. Perhaps I will sneak in and grab a piece of Ms. H's triple chocolate cake (maybe the whole thing) and wolf it down, washing it down with one of her martinis. If she becomes angry I shall tell her I witnessed the actions, but I was not the doer.
This Jnani sounds like I can have my cake and eat it too. If anyone objects, I will just change the channel

Methinks that would present a problem.

Material reductionists might suggest both consciousness and free will are illusory. I even tend to agree if viewed just from the perspective of body and mind as they are of nature. That being said I also disagree because ultimately consciousness is not illusory but fundamental and it's only Its reflection in mind that's seemingly illusory.

If one can rest in that ultimate perspective therein lies the potential of actual free will, navigating body and mind through apparent/transactional reality and unselfishly so, which as I see it is the foundation of morality and ethics. In this light there will be no midnight requisitioning of Miss H's gustatory delights. LOL!

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Methinks that would present a problem.

Material reductionists might suggest both consciousness and free will are illusory. I even tend to agree if viewed just from the perspective of body and mind as they are of nature. That being said I also disagree because ultimately consciousness is not illusory but fundamental and it's only Its reflection in mind that's seemingly illusory.

If one can rest in that ultimate perspective therein lies the potential of actual free will, navigating body and mind through apparent/transactional reality and unselfishly so, which as I see it is the foundation of morality and ethics. In this light there will be no midnight requisitioning of Miss H's gustatory delicacies. LOL!

So my choice is to awaken and go without the chocolate cake...wake me after I have eaten please.....and when Miss H is not around.

From one perspective the body and mind, and it's experience of life, are Maya, illusory. But from the perspective of consciousness, it is a real reflection of its own mind. All illusions are real illusions, it's just a matter of perspective (no pun intended....but I do enjoy it anyway ;).

So the question I have to ask my silly self, is why does my consciousness go about reflecting its mind and fooling itself that way? It's not all chocolate cake and martinis after all, some of it can be rather unpleasant. Should my silly self just seek to knock it all off, look away from the mirror, and rest in awareness? Should it seek to maintain it's awareness that it is really all Maya and therefor not truly consequential to my consciousness, my real self? Would not such awareness completely alter the qualia of the experiences of life? Like the guy who keeps talking during the movie spoiling the experience by reminding me it is not really happening, I am not really there with Forest out in the Gulf during a hurricane, that I am just the witness of the illusory patterns of light upon a screen.

Or, does Maya and my self deception have something more to offer me than just a game of ping pong with Forest Gump where nobody is keeping score, and nobody gets any better at keeping their eye on the ball?


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[lemex]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Perhaps, but what if Everette is right, and the universe is fully deterministic?
Where is choice and free will then?

Or even if the Copenhagen'ers are right. Is it not then just a matter of random chance?

Where is Karma then? Deterministically baked into the smoothly evolving quantum wave function, or just chance in the roll of God's dice?

Personally, I don't use the word deterministic but say the universe is passive and it does not exceed itself. I believe the picture of karma imo is not complete. Our karma is in what we are ignoring. Is it random chance, no.

You bring up so many good questions I enjoy them very much.

Originally Posted by ketzer

So my choice is to awaken and go without the chocolate cake...wake me after I have eaten please.....and when Miss H is not around.

From one perspective the body and mind, and it's experience of life, are Maya, illusory. But from the perspective of consciousness, it is a real reflection of its own mind. All illusions are real illusions, it's just a matter of perspective (no pun intended....but I do enjoy it anyway ;).

So the question I have to ask my silly self, is why does my consciousness go about reflecting its mind and fooling itself that way? It's not all chocolate cake and martinis after all, some of it can be rather unpleasant. Should my silly self just seek to knock it all off, look away from the mirror, and rest in awareness? Should it seek to maintain it's awareness that it is really all Maya and therefor not truly consequential to my consciousness, my real self? Would not such awareness completely alter the qualia of the experiences of life? Like the guy who keeps talking during the movie spoiling the experience by reminding me it is not really happening, I am not really there with Forest out in the Gulf during a hurricane, that I am just the witness of the illusory patterns of light upon a screen.

Or, does Maya and my self deception have something more to offer me than just a game of ping pong with Forest Gump where nobody is keeping score, and nobody gets any better at keeping their eye on the ball?


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God pretending to be not-God? https://youtu.be/wU0PYcCsL6o