What I believe full enlightenment is

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Can you be feeling both ecstasy and anger at the same time?

Can you see why it doesn't add up for me?

Permanent bliss or ecstacy is not allowing anger or irritation or worry to be expressed ..

It's like oil and water they don't mix ..

What I do understand however is that you can realize what you are and still be open to a change in emotion because the nature of life's experience is changeable.

You are in someway trying to divide this bliss or ecstacy with being angry ..

I don't think any amount of research is going to help me on this score, you are either blissfully happy or you are not, you can't be both at the same time.

Perhaps other's who are reading along with this have their thought's on the matter, for I can't make sense of it at all ..


x dazzle x

Daz...hey there :)
To me, you and Running are both talking about the same thing. He is good with it because he accepts of course you still have thoughts and feelings, alongside the sublime joy of being. We are human and we have incarnated precisely to experience and grow in our state of being, our individuated consciousness in physical form.

I say "sublime joy of being" instead of "bliss" because frankly, to me it is clearer that way. "Bliss", like "love" or "God", it's used to mean so many things and it can confuse and misdirect many. (You also mention merging with One but that is, IMO, not the bit Running is talking about. That is the "textbook" definition of awakening as epiphany and momentary ecstasy, but it's not where we actually live after awakening...LOL! Meanwhile, some other folks ARE talking about the textbook version, which confuses things).

Likewise, just as we can know we still love someone, and that we still love and acknowledge One/Great Spirit/etc....it doesn't mean we won't also think or feel other things. We may feel hurt or confused by another we love. We may feel hurt or confused by the state of existence and thus feel put off toward Source. It doesn't mean the abiding love we have for them has gone anywhere. We still feel that love, and we still are that love -- in the aware, conscious sense as well as in the sense of pure being. It is in that same way we experience sublime joy with awakening...the same one you and Running are discussing.

The thing is, we have to regularly let go and let out the anger and the grief...it is a natural part of your being. It's hard when we've been made to feel certain emotions are dangerous and unwelcome, or simply bothersome. I am still learning this lesson, and it's a real trip as they say. It doesn't mean you still don't feel the sublime joy of being...it's just they are all there together, and you have to fortify the joy and allow the joy of being (=authentic love, without which the universe cannot exist) to expand, in order to better soothe and buffer the suffering.

It was this EXACT teaching that Jesus showed me first, when I cautiously sought him out for advice on heart healing several years ago. The suffering is equally treasured and is NOT silenced or wiped away. It is taken in whole, loved and accepted, and buffered and held with greater amounts of love so that we can bear it, to in a sense dilute or disperse it -- but never to silence it or alter its fundamental state. This too is a truth of our being...that people and things matter, and that loss and grief are real (even if ultimately impermanent) and should be honoured with greater amounts of love. So that we can be fully present to all of it, to all we are and have experienced. I think this is one of the most powerful teachings I've received...it speaks to our human experience.

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Daz...hey there :)
To me, you and Running are both talking about the same thing. He is good with it because he accepts of course you still have thoughts and feelings, alongside the sublime joy of being. We are human and we have incarnated precisely to experience and grow in our state of being, our individuated consciousness in physical form.

I say "sublime joy of being" instead of "bliss" because frankly, to me it is clearer that way. "Bliss", like "love" or "God", it's used to mean so many things and it can confuse and misdirect many. (You also mention merging with One but that is, IMO, not the bit Running is talking about. That is the "textbook" definition of awakening as epiphany and momentary ecstasy, but it's not where we actually live after awakening...LOL! Meanwhile, some other folks ARE talking about the textbook version, which confuses things).

Likewise, just as we can know we still love someone, and that we still love and acknowledge One/Great Spirit/etc....it doesn't mean we won't also think or feel other things. We may feel hurt or confused by another we love. We may feel hurt or confused by the state of existence and thus feel put off toward Source. It doesn't mean the abiding love we have for them has gone anywhere. We still feel that love, and we still are that love -- in the aware, conscious sense as well as in the sense of pure being. It is in that same way we experience sublime joy with awakening...the same one you and running are discussing.

The thing is, you have to regularly let go and let out the anger and the grief...it is a natural part of your being. It's hard when we've been made to feel certain emotions are dangerous and unwelcome, or simply bothersome. I am still learning this lesson, and it's a real trip as they say. It doesn't mean you still don't feel the sublime joy of being...it's just they are all there together, and you have to fortify the joy and allow the joy of being (=authentic love, without which the universe cannot exist) to expand, in order to better soothe and buffer the suffering.

It was this EXACT teaching that Jesus showed me first, when I cautiously sought him out for advice on heart healing several years ago. The suffering is treasured and is NOT silenced or wiped away. It is taken in whole, loved and accepted, and buffered and held with greater amounts of love, to in a sense dilute or disperse it -- but never to silence it or alter its fundamental state. This too is a truth of our being...that people and things matter, and that loss and grief are real (even if ultimately impermanent) and should be honoured with greater amounts of love. So that we can be fully present to all of it, to all we are and have experienced. I think this is one of the most powerful teachings I've received...it speaks to our human experience.

Peace & blessings
7L

Hey :)

What is this sublime joy of being?

How is it felt along side anger? Is it felt at all?

If this permanent joyfulness is present and it is beyond emotion, there would be no comparison had for pain or suffering ..

You either feel bliss-ness through the emotional body or it has no relevance being felt.

How can you even say that I am permanently joyful when there is no actual sense of it lol ..

What I referred to as being blissful was beyond the mind-body-experience, it doesn't refer to working in a stressful environment for examples sake.

There is too much of a mish mash of contexts going on here in my eyes ..

In my eyes anger doesn't arise in bliss because bliss doesn't cater for it .

You can't be blissfully killing someone in self defence as another example .

There is no permanent bliss of this world environment, which is what Krishnamurti was alluding too .


x dazzle x

[7luminaries]

Hey :) Ah...sorry didn't clarify. It's like I was saying to Questions.
The sublime joy of being is not a feeling in the usual sense.
It's a part of your being, and hence you are aware of it.
In healer speak...it's how you upgrade your wiring. Though I have had a bit of a break in the heart centre which is coming along but still under repair... but if you saw me before, I could channel untold amounts of energy for healing It's coming along...I'm determined to get there.

It is inseparable from the multidimensional heart centre, though it is all through your being. I think that is what Running describes, though these descriptions are all hit or miss...it's whatever you resonate with. When awakened mind is in service to awakened heart, we become aware of what this is. This sublime joy of being. It's not a feeling but we can perceive it as underlying or undergirding love, joy, or bliss.

It's more than a feeling unless we say it is an enduring or foundational "feeling". It is the awakened heart centre. A healer might say, clinically, we "feel" or perceive the state of our being more once awakened, since we experience the resonance of all we all from the heart centre, flowing into and out of the heart centre. We also experience interbeing with all that is, and that too adds resonance.

It's the same as being authentic love. It's simply the state of what/who you are, once awakened. But this doesn't mean, as you and Running have honestly and clearly mentioned, that we don't think or feel and have real experiences of these things.

There is no permanent bliss of this world environment, which is what Krishnamurti was alluding too .

If we mean only bliss and nothing else, I agree this is only for merging with Oneness...and Buddha wisely said don't do that for long, as otherwise we simply die, go mad, or are comatose.

There is & can be permanent ananda as experienced within our individuated beings, but it does NOT remove or cancel or "silence" all other things we feel, think, or experience...particularly those relating to authentic love and real caring for other people and things, as authentic love IS ananda in the truest sense, and thus it is real and eternal. The deep losses we feel here are also real and enduring to the spirit...hence these things too (our losses and sufferings) must be accepted, loved, and cared for as well.

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Ah...sorry didn't clarify. It's like I was saying to Questions.
The sublime joy of being is not a feeling in the usual sense.
It's a part of your being, and hence you are aware of it.
In healer speak...it's how you upgrade your wiring. Though I have had a bit of a break in the heart centre which is coming along but still under repair... but if you saw me before, I could channel untold amounts of energy for healing It's coming along...I'm determined to get there.

It is inseparable from the multidimensional heart centre, though it is all through your being. I think that is what Running describes, though these descriptions are all hit or miss...it's whatever you resonate with.

When awakened mind is in service to awakened heart, we become aware of what this is. This sublime joy of being. It's not a feeling but we can perceive it as underlying or undergirding love, joy, or bliss.

It's more than a feeling unless we say it is an enduring or foundational "feeling". It is the awakened heart centre. A healer might say, clinically, we "feel" or perceive the state of our being more once awakened, since we experience the resonance of all we all from the heart centre, flowing into and out of the heart centre. We also experience interbeing with all that is, and that too adds resonance.

It's the same as being authentic love. It's simply the state of what/who you are, once awakened. But this doesn't mean, as you and Running have honestly and clearly mentioned, that we don't think or feel and have real experiences of these things.

If we mean only bliss and nothing else, I agree this is only for merging with Oneness...and Buddha wisely said don't do that for long, as otherwise we simply die, go mad, or are comatose.

There is & can be permanent ananda as experienced within our individuated beings, but it does NOT remove or cancel or "silence" all other things we feel, think, or experience...particularly those relating to authentic love and real caring for other people and things, as authentic love IS ananda in the truest sense, and thus it is real and eternal. The deep losses we feel here are also real and enduring to the spirit...hence these things too (our losses and sufferings) must be accepted, loved, and cared for as well.

Peace & blessings
7L

Hey :)

So if you are blissfully Joyful of simply 'being' and it isn't a feeling like an emotion then why would there be anger arising?

If there was fundamentally Peace or Love or Joy there would never be any room for anything other than that .

It is the whole water and oil scenario where they simply don't mix ..

You can't be Blissful as a foundation and then get irritated at the fly for keeping you awake.

Too many things here that don't add up ..

If you allow irritation become you, there is the self reflection of irritation.

You created it through your own self reflection for why the fly is an irritant to you ..

You won't see any irritation in the fly if you are permanently blissful .

I can't put it in another way, you can't smack someone in the face in self defence when you are being blissful ..

Not buying it sorry .. (now envisaging a blissed-out guru reaching for the zen stick in order to whack a hopeless, ignorant devotee with it)


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

In the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Berakoth Folio 17a describes bliss with the following words:

"In the future world there is no eating nor drinking nor propagation nor business nor jealousy nor hatred nor competition, but the righteous sit with their crowns on their heads feasting on the brightness of the divine presence, as it says, And they beheld God, and did eat and drink".

I am not ready: I like to eat.

BigJohn...really beautiful, that What an inspiration.
Thank you for sharing.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

So if you are blissfully Joyful of simply 'being' and it isn't a feeling like an emotion then why would there be anger arising?

If there was fundamentally Peace or Love or Joy there would never be any room for anything other than that .

It is the whole water and oil scenario where they simply don't mix ..

You can't be Blissful as a foundation and then get irritated at the fly for keeping you awake.

Too many things here that don't add up ..

If you allow irritation become you, there is the self reflection of irritation.

You created it through your own self reflection for why the fly is an irritant to you ..

You won't see any irritation in the fly if you are permanently blissful .

I can't put it in another way, you can't smack someone in the face in self defence when you are being blissful ..

Not buying it sorry .. (now envisaging a blissed-out guru reaching for the zen stick in order to whack a hopeless, ignorant devotee with it)


x daz x

Hahaha :) Are you getting the whacking or giving it? Enquiring minds want to know (moves out of reach JIC)

So...I agree, if (as K seems to have meant) we mean permabliss (w/nothing else arising) due to Oneness, then this won't happen in day-to-day existence.
Because to be fully in Oneness, we lose our individuality. We would part with our bodies, our sanity, or our consciousness, if we linger too long in that state.

So, what can or will happen whilst we are individuated consciousness (and incarnated)? IMO we can experience the sublime joy of being (ananda), but it will not (and should not!) override, cancel, or silence our thoughts and feelings. These too are real and meaningful, as they are a critical part of our incarnated experience. Moreover...those things which engage our heart centre in authentic love -- these are eternal. Ananda is no different in essence than authentic love. The supreme [joy] without which the universe cannot exist. Manifest in lovingkindness and equanimity.

Thus IMO ananda cannot cancel authentic love, because ultimately it is the same thing, a point made clearer to us at times in different situations and circumstances. We all know real love is also enduring. The foundational joy of being doesn't (and cannot) cancel or override our authentic love of others. And IMO nor will it NOR should it cancel the real loss and grief we feel at their passing or if we are otherwise separated.

All of these experiences are precious and of priceless value. And some of them hurt...that too is truth, and that is real. To want to "feel" bliss as some do in any & all situations...even on the passing of a beloved fam or friend...that is odd but "whatevs", but IMO it is also taking away from the fullness of the reality [that you love these folks and you will always love them, authentically, and you have real feelings and real grief, which likewise needs honoured in its fullness and attended with greater amounts of love -- I am gonna call this the Jesus Teaching of the Heart Centre].

And IMO anything that takes us away from being present with the fullness of who and what we are is misdirected. Right alignment as I see it would say honour all that is held in your heart centre, in authentic love.

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hahaha :) Are you getting the whacking or giving it? Enquiring minds want to know (moves out of reach JIC)

So...I agree, if (as K seems to have meant) we mean permabliss (w/nothing else arising) due to Oneness, then this won't happen in day-to-day existence.
Because to be fully in Oneness, we lose our individuality. We would part with our bodies, our sanity, or our consciousness, if we linger too long in that state.

So, what can or will happen whilst we are individuated consciousness (and incarnated)? IMO we can experience the sublime joy of being (ananda), but it will not (and should not!) override, cancel, or silence our thoughts and feelings. These too are real and meaningful, as they are a critical part of our incarnated experience. Moreover...those things which engage our heart centre in authentic love -- these are eternal. Ananda is no different in essence than authentic love. The supreme [joy] without which the universe cannot exist. Manifest in lovingkindness and equanimity.

Thus IMO ananda cannot cancel authentic love, because ultimately it is the same thing, a point made clearer to us at times in different situations and circumstances. We all know real love is also enduring. The foundational joy of being doesn't (and cannot) cancel or override our authentic love of others. And IMO nor will it NOR should it cancel the real loss and grief we feel at their passing or if we are otherwise separated.

All of these experiences are precious and of priceless value. And some of them hurt...that too is truth, and that is real. To want to "feel" bliss as some do in any & all situations...even on the passing of a beloved fam or friend...that is odd but "whatevs", but IMO it is also taking away from the fullness of the reality [that you love these folks and you will always love them, authentically, and you have real feelings and real grief, which likewise needs honoured in its fullness and attended with greater amounts of love -- I am gonna call this the Jesus Teaching of the Heart Centre].

And IMO anything that takes us away from being present with the fullness of who and what we are is misdirected. Right alignment as I see it would say honour all that is held in your heart centre, in authentic love.

Peace & blessings
7L

The thing about ananda (amanda) is that how many blissed out bunnies do you actually know that live busy stressful lives?

It is easy to stay in a blissful state within a stress free environment, agreed?

Put a blissed out bunny in my world and lets see how long he or she lasts in bunny land ..

It's not so much permanence on it's own merit, it is all down to environment within experience.

Put Rama Dama or whatever his name is into a customer complaints department for a 12 hour shift and lets see the OM mantra change into a *** mantra :)

I do get what your saying about the differences, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be difficult for difficult's sake, I am being more realistic than anything else ..

When I am off work and I am in solitude it doesn't take long for me to acclimatise to the peace and much changes energetically speaking ..

If I sat on a mountain top now or in a monastery with all my years of practice behind me I would be off this planet of self-awareness pretty sharpish ..

This I believe is more to the point than the floaty gurus speaking about permanent bliss ananda .

Like said how many bliss bunnies does anyone actually know and what are their current circumstances relating to their environment? Are they living in a one bedroom flat with 3 kids and an abusive partner for instance?


x daz x

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by running

then it becomes a philosophical debate. i dont necessarely disagree with what your saying. and i think these things can become a big block from bliss and silence if it becomes about the gift more than the other. but thats ok. my girlfriend runs as she calls it bliss off and on. silence. she likes it that way. she gave me a healing yesterday for my shoulder. noticed it is damaged a little. my shoulder responded and put her into what she calls running the bliss. today she perhaps isn't now. and for her she likes it that way. because the bliss makes her less productive and can't think as well. simply because her system isn't used to it from going off and on. and also she is more about being a psychic. thats her job and values that the most. so a variety of reasons can be like blocks. but to her its not. but a choice. she values one thing over the other.

anyways im just trying to say for a variety of reasons i think things from my view can be blocks. blocks to me cause i value bliss and silence over the other.

ok. going back to this guy astral projecting. i just drove myself down the road. ate some food once i stopped. typing words right now communicating to you. a couple days ago while meditating i was getting some psychic information. called my mom to see how she is doing. after im done typing. going to go use the bathroom. all of which is a doing. so dualistic. all the while experiencing the non dual of blliss and silence uninterrupted.

so i dont know what you mean exactly. if he is in the bliss and silence and its causeless, ongoing , no disruptions, and so on. non dual. and i would think since he is alive. he would just like everybody else engage in duality. experience the non dual while also experincing duality. i think its just a sing of a spiritual gift he has.

having and using spiritual gifts just like everything else doesn't disrupt the experience of the non dual. if it is to the point of permanence.

thats how i see it. but enlightement could mean a lot of things. its really not a word i use or think of. so i am simply responding based upon the experience of bliss and silence.

You feel your fingers as part of yourself right?

Non dual would be feeling the movement of a leaf on a tree as yourself in the same way as your finger.

You don't go anywhere to feel your finger, nor would you have to go anywhere to be the leaf, the universe, etc. You are all that.

Bliss and silence has many levels so there can be a danger on basing everything on ones current experience of either. I am sure you have seen that here at SF with some people..

You are right that enlightenment can have many definitions so it is best in a thread like this to lay out a definition.

To me it is moving beyond the ego self, to realizing the Oneness of all things as well as the emptiness of that Universal Oneness.

[davidsun]

Great (dare I say 'enlightened') love-and-wisdom sharing, 7L.

Daz, perhaps this will help you to digest (as opposed to spit/vomit at) the 'food for thought' that you are being served:

Think of a professional player playing a game that s/he loves playing. S/he may be and gloryingly remain 'in' the 'zen-zone' even if and when and after experiencing 'failures' (to score) and/or 'losses' (i.e. scores against her/him) etc. because s/he is so into 'the game' that playing it (for all s/he is worth, with all her or his mind and heart).

Amateur players, on the other hand, contnue to get 'caught' up in dysphorically feeling 'irritated' and so don't love and enjoy the game, thinking and feeling the game 'sucks' (is unfair, etc.), 'envying' those with greater talents, higher scores, etc., 'wishing to quit' (get 'out' of the game), etc.

[running]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Why can't you just explain to me in your own words through your own experience/s how you can be feeling permanently blissful or permanently in a state of ecstacy that is beyond emotion and yet still respond to an array of emotions like irritation and anger at the same time.

To be honest I don't want to study or research pages of stuff about the nervous system, I am not really interested, I am more interested in your experience of both feeling emotions of anger or worry while also being ecstatic at the same time.

I believe however that it is possible to feel mixed emotions, like feeling happy and sad at the same time, the loss of my parents as an example brought me a mixed bag of emotions, both deep sadness for myself and happiness for my parents for being in a better place ..

This I understand full well because it has been my experience, so I hope you will understand why I am asking you how one can be cursing something one minute while also being in a permanent state of ecstacy that is beyond emotion ..

Who is being angry? Who is being ecstatic?

Do you feel that you are blissful or ecstatic because it's hard to understand how you can relate to it when it is beyond the sense of feeling ..


x daz x

ok. i will do my best to explain how the brain and nervous system work. there is no understanding it except from that. which is why i said i cant help you. now im going to try. but keep in mind im limited to what words i can use on the forum. no issue with that. im just saying.

the brain does many things. one of its jobs is to work along side with the nervous system. it releases natural chemicals into the body. the body has many nerves everyehere. those nerves react to what is released by the brain. the reaction in the body and in the mind from the nerves being activated feels very pleasureable.

all of this is facilitated by the feminine aspect of the divine. you may literaly feel the movement of spirit like a current flowing in the body. that flowing of spirit is what makes the pheomena happen.

the process is experinces of such for moments. to minutes. to hours. to days. to permanence. this may take a few years to a lifetime to become permenant. maybe months for somebody.

it is extremely weird for something to happen which makes one angry, sad, or whatever negative emotion while being flooded with this joy. that is weird. i understand your confusion. its weird for the person to experience. over time it is no longer weird. it just is.

the benefit of being in this joy from spirit while bad things happen. is its all experinced in this joy. therefore things aren't experinced so harshly. and they dont last nearly as long.

what it feels like for the person is like i said about the river. the river(bliss) washes everything into the ocean as they arise.

i sincerely hope that explanation helps.