Ethical Difference Between Veggie and Vegan

dreamt: Ijust go with what feels right. I'm sure you do too.

I don't know what you mean by that. Of course I go with what feels right. Everyone goes with what they feel is right. Why would someone go with what does not feel right (?)

[psychoslice]

Well sometimes taking drugs might feel right, but is it ?.

The topic here is vegetarianism and veganism. No-one is going to have an altered state of consciousness from consuming a dairy product I don't think.

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by dreamt

The topic here is vegetarianism and veganism. No-one is going to have an altered state of consciousness from consuming a dairy product I don't think.

Just wait and see, there will be someone, there always is lol.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by dreamt

The topic here is vegetarianism and veganism. No-one is going to have an altered state of consciousness from consuming a dairy product I don't think.

I find there is a difference between morals and ethics. Morals are founded on personal beliefs, which then guide right and wrong in the universal sense... which is problematic as one person's personal values are imposed on other people. Ethics is different because one dispenses with their own personal value system and considers everyone involved.

Making a moral decision doesn't require anyone to weigh up all the implications, but making an ethical decision necessitates it. Take the example of homosexuals getting married... that is twisted by terms as 'marriage equality' and the counter term 'natural marriage'... the first suggests it is a human right and the second suggests it is un-natural. Those are moral stances based on individual beliefs.

This is about vegism and veganism, and there's all this moralistic stuff about spirit an souls and what not, and most implications are not even considered, which confuses us because I say 'I'm' a vegan because of cruelity in the industry' or 'I'm this other thingy'... OK that's fine, but they are personal values which can never actually arrive at an ethical decision.

Ethically, we can consider the suffering of livestock, the needs of nutrition, not just in our neo capital society, but for impoverished people in remote locations and harsher environments... certainly vegism is immoral for those who would suffer ill health or death if animal products were removed from their diet.

I always remember the situaltion of the West New Britian villagers, because they have very little money if they have any at all, and they are fishermen, basically... so I'd like to submit a video that illustrates the real life situation of one culture's survival methods, and portray the peace of it, the spiritual side of it... and the violence of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTbyViHY3Ls

I chose the word ethical rather than moral for that reason. I'm just interested here in individual or cultural viewpoints on it. So 'personal ethics' then is probably what I mean. And, as you point out, ethics is about the realistic options that are available.
That said though, I think there are some absolutes also. You mentioned earlier about a calf being mistreated for its milk and obviously this is wrong. Animals could provide food while also being treated with respect, and so it's the methods used that are wrong.

As I mentioned already, I'm not even fully vegetarian myself at this point (I am almost, but..). I did used to be and then vegan for a few years in my 20s.

Originally Posted by Gem

Ethically, we can consider the suffering of livestock, the needs of nutrition, not just in our neo capital society, but for impoverished people in
remote locations and harsher environments... certainly vegism is immoral for those who would suffer ill health or death if animal products were removed from their diet.

I think that's true. The nutrition side of it is important also.

Just to say a little on my own example, when I went vegetarian, it was for definite ethical reasons. Then I moved to vegan after a couple of years, but actually this wasn't because of ethics, but moreso wanting to be super-healthy.
Some others I knew who were vegan were extreme about it - not using leather goods etc.
I stopped being vegan because I became low in some nutrients (which I don't think would be likely to happen now, but this was in the 90s).

I always remember the situaltion of the West New Britian villagers, because they have very little money if they have any at all, and they are fishermen, basically... so I'd like to submit a video that illustrates the real life situation of one culture's survival methods, and portray the peace of it, the spiritual side of it... and the violence of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTbyViHY3Ls

These are a different culture of people than our modern culture and people need protein and nutrients in their diet.

[psychoslice]

I have never really meet a truly healthy vegan, and I was sounded with them, being a Seventh Day Adventist, the vegetarians were the most healthy over all.

Originally Posted by dreamt

Some others I knew who were vegan were extreme about it - not using leather goods etc.

Is that extreme?

I'm not vegan but I won't wear leather for the same reason that I won't eat beef: a cow was killed so that the product could be made. That's just wrong to me.

And what I meant by saying that you should do what you feel is right is simply that. If it feels right to you, truly, then for you right now it probably is. You may change your views in time, as might I.

Originally Posted by Ecthalion

Is that extreme?

It's not, and I didn't mean it in any judgemental sense. I was vegan for about two years, so I just meant it by contast, as in for me, it was dietary only. I did not throw away some shoes I was wearing just because my diet changed.
Besides that, I don't tend to buy leather anyway. The shoes I'm talking about were old and vintage. I see a difference between that and actually purchasing newly made stuff.

And what I meant by saying that you should do what you feel is right is simply that. If it feels right to you, truly, then for you right now it probably is. You may change your views in time, as might I.

Okay, but still doesn't make sense as a response to what I said... It's not like I was looking for advice. The thread was simply for people to discuss their views if they so wished.