Which me is me?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Or I could ask this another way.

What allows you to experience yourself as you, in everway you experience yourself 7luminaries?

Naturesflow, "it" (lol) is both material and immaterial, both temporal and non-temporal. It is individuated consciousness. The soul (or spirit, or consciousness...whatever term you prefer) inhabits and animates the body. It is not that we must have body...it is not that we must have soul or consciousness...in order to be and experience that which we are in this place and time.

Is is both that we must have...meaning all things temporal and non-temporal, all things material and immaterial.

And as Rah Nam stated, it is the integration of both that is the more complex aspect for most.

I can be more specific though, if it wasn't clear before. Emotion is reflected onto the physical and causes physical reactions. Emotion or trauma (physical or non-physical) may be stored in the body. But this is not the same thing as being "located" in the body. Any action of spirit or consciousness is reflected onto the physical being...that is the nature of emanation from spirit to matter.

But when I experience sublime joy or expansive love, it is not located solely in the body. It can only be said to be located everywhere at once, emanating from my whole being (spiritual and physical). Consciousness awakens to the ever-present nature of these foundational emotions...thus we increasingly experience these emotions as constant and enduring. And not just "of the body".

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Emotion will suffuse and positively transform one's consciousness when awakened, in ever more permanent form. Addicts may need to know how to better handle this rather than to detach from emotion. It seems like more balance (discipline and equanimity) is required, rather than less emotion or fobbing emotion off to the body box, which seems very simplistic to me as a long-term approach.

Originally Posted by Gem

Equanimity is basically the same as detachment. There's no less emotion, on the contrary, one would feel more deeply and intrinsically. Its a matter of turning off the story about me and simply being there as things change. Then the mind will transform because there's nothing conflicting or resisting, not some thoughts trying to control some other thoughts, not an internal argument or expectational 'shoulds' or other judgments, or anyone striving to be anything other than as they are.

Actually Gem, there was one thing I did want to comment on. And it was a little further discussion of equanimity. It is probably among the least well known aspects of personal development across the broad swath of humanity.
And yet it is near and dear to so many of us.

As I see it, equanimity first and foremost means and brings balance...and with this, peace of mind and deeper centredness also typically result. All good things. But it is the nature of the balance you seek and which you individually may require that gives equanimity the depth and breadth of all its various permutations.

For me and for many like me, equanimity for the purposes of handling the fullness of my emotional capacity was already present. That was not the equanimity I experienced in more recent years on my journey. That equanimity was present in me from a young age.

But I realise you are correct in that it is not present in so many, and thus they suffer not only from the ebb and flow of strong emotion but also, due to lacking sufficient equanimity from early ages, they may graduate to detaching in the sense of numbing out to their emotions, simply as a way to cope.

This fundamental level of equanimity you are describing is absolutely necessary in order to fully experience your emotional range naturally and without fear -- I completely agree. But there are other aspects of equanimity...and again, there are probably strong individual and social components to those other aspects.

For me, it was not this fundamental aspect of equanimity that I lacked...rather, it was the aspect of equanimity that specifically relates to valuing and loving the self equally to that of others. This is another fundamental aspect of equanimity which has allowed me and many others to overcome social conditioning that says women should practice abnegation and should find their value in serving others at the expense of self. And yet this is a very destruction message, which results in a lot of misalignment and misdirection, spiritually speaking, involving various forms of physical and emotional trauma, abuse, and neglect for so many.

Equally dangerous and toxic, this message - once absorbed - allows for more pliant conditioning and commodification of the female person for general exploitation and degradation by others, who have also received the same message (and who also have to reject and overcome it, for their own growth -- here, equanimity in the sense I am describing will also allow them to value others equally to the self).

Equanimity is such a beautiful thing in that it provides balance in many areas, each one equally fundamental and corrective in its own way.

Just thought I'd expand on that a bit.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[naturesflow]

[quote]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Naturesflow, "it" (lol) is both material and immaterial, both temporal and non-temporal. It is individuated consciousness. The soul (or spirit, or consciousness...whatever term you prefer) inhabits and animates the body. It is not that we must have body...it is not that we must have soul or consciousness...in order to be and experience that which we are in this place and time.

Wouldn't you say the experience of you as you can only know yourself to be here and now is that this body allows for you to express, be this, present, know and support all this you are sharing here in this moment? I don't have any must have's in place in my curiosity of how you view this, so I am not really relating this to anything more than here and now, the present moment. The fact is you in this body knowing all this and presenting all this. You cannot know yourself beyond this moment of now as you are any other way because you are whole and complete in a body being all this?

Is is both that we must have...meaning all things temporal and non-temporal, all things material and immaterial.

How do you see that it is a must to have both? In my ever changing view of the nature of reality as every changing moment presents itself to me, life goes on in more ways than just the awareness of knowing these things. Just as I might have been informed of these things and hold them as my awareness, there is so much more occurring within the whole nature of this experience. As one aspect of my own knowing, each aspect of the whole nature of reality is a constant reflection of more, constant integration of deepening and letting go. So the whole when presented in the facts of what I know of the past, have built as my knowing of now, are constantly shifting, deepening, experiencing more in the infinite flow of all of life in everyway of life as it reflects.

And as Rah Nam stated, it is the integration of both that is the more complex aspect for most.

But what you or I or Rah Nam are aware of and doing for our part or anyone else for that matter, is just the expression of our own experience in this body as of this moment aware. The knowing and awareness is a constant deepening process. The complexity you see is the complexity of all life moving through the whole as its part in expression as it knows itself to be in body here and now. So it is this that makes up the whole and where you are looking at being everywhere in your experience as a spiritual emanation of yourself, then everywhere is everything being itself, in all life presenting an expression of the whole, of itself through the whole of life as we know it is and do not know it is.

I can be more specific though, if it wasn't clear before. Emotion is reflected onto the physical and causes physical reactions. Emotion or trauma (physical or non-physical) may be stored in the body. But this is not the same thing as being "located" in the body. Any action of spirit or consciousness is reflected onto the physical being...that is the nature of emanation from spirit to matter.

Any action of spirit or consciousness is reflected into the physical being?

When you say this, this is how it appears your relating this. So bare with me. Its like your saying that spirit reflects from outside of you into you? Where as I see my mind body spirit as one in me? This body allows my spirit and whole self to experience itself as I know myself right now in this moment. Each piece of myself experiencing and integrated as one source brings to life the awareness of what is all within me. The external views are only bringing to life a reflection of what I am complete within. What I am incomplete as part of everything reflecting constantly back to me its expression of itself that I do not know as myself, but it is part of everything I am in my knowing of my own integration process. So each moment arising shifts me into a deeper state of being complete. But that is just my experience of many experiencing as one source together.

But when I experience sublime joy or expansive love, it is not located solely in the body. It can only be said to be located everywhere at once, emanating from my whole being (spiritual and physical). Consciousness awakens to the ever-present nature of these foundational emotions...thus we increasingly experience these emotions as constant and enduring. And not just "of the body".

Even as you know yourself out of body as a spirit, and I know myself as complete in body as mind/body/spirit, in these feelings of sublime joy and expansive love as being located everywhere at once that you say exist I am still confused how you do not see all this you typed as your own expansive nature of being the whole complete in you experiencing all this as the whole being? For me joy and expansive love is constant and reflected through what I am as I know myself to be as a whole connected being in this body. It is part of the whole experience in this body as I know myself to be. What I know of myself out of body is what I know through this vessel as a source that allows me to experience myself in any way I create and open to know and build as myself in this body. In sharing this the integration of all this in me, leaves me with the reflection that what was out there no longer reflects out there but from within me, expressing as I am now.

SO I suppose in your sharing and knowing I relate to the awareness your sharing in my own awareness of myself, but it seems you express yourself as something out of body and in body at the same time. Where as I experience my out of body in this body expressing as a whole. My experience has shown me everything is within, even as I might perceive everything outside of myself. The whole is the whole of life expressing itself in everyway of itself. I cannot know and express the experience of this present moment without the inclusion of the whole in this way. I am that being this experience as I am in everyway I am, have been and are right now in this moment, inclusive of this body in the whole connection of all life being itself as it only knows itself to be.

[7luminaries]

Naturesflow...thank you so much for your thoughts
It is really lovely that you put so much time and care into your responses.

I am often overwhelmed by the number of separate response paragraphs in a response when I see it...and it may take me days or weeks to come back to it in order to digest & respond properly. But I will try to do so, I promise.

Until then, I will just say that I pretty much said what I have to say and I probably don't have any better or fancier way to say it But lest I let too much time go by till I come back to it...

Let me most definitely agree that whatever you have said about integration and flow is generally all good as I see it...and it applies as I see it to what I was trying to say as well. What I had to say was completely valid for me, but I sometimes don't feel comfortable parsing it out too much further. Integration is the point of it and sometimes I feel I spoil my own words when I try to take them down into too many separate pieces. Words are great but regarding integration and a unified mind-body-consciousness perspective, sometimes they just don't cut it too well.

And yet I do want to be sure to affirm that your contributions and your focus are equally valid for you, as are Gem's for him...and I respect all of that, including everyone's own way of conceptualising and describing their experiences. It's all good. I wouldn't want my way, my being, and my understanding to be the way for all eternity...nor yours or his. That would be such a drag, eh?

I'm very comfortable having my say, and you having yours, and letting it all coexist as we learn and observe from one another's perspectives.

Peace & blessings
7L

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Naturesflow...thank you so much for your thoughts
It is really lovely that you put so much time and care into your responses.

I am often overwhelmed by the number of separate response paragraphs in a response when I see it...and it may take me days or weeks to come back to it in order to digest & respond properly. But I will try to do so, I promise.

Until then, I will just say that I pretty much said what I have to say and I probably don't have any better or fancier way to say it But lest I let too much time go by till I come back to it...

Let me most definitely agree that whatever you have said about integration and flow is generally all good as I see it...and it applies as I see it to what I was trying to say as well. What I had to say was completely valid for me, but I sometimes don't feel comfortable parsing it out too much further. Integration is the point of it and sometimes I feel I spoil my own words when I try to take them down into too many separate pieces. Words are great but regarding integration and a unified mind-body-consciousness perspective, sometimes they just don't cut it too well.

And yet I do want to be sure to affirm that your contributions and your focus are equally valid for you, as are Gem's for him...and I respect all of that, including everyone's own way of conceptualising and describing their experiences. It's all good. I wouldn't want my way, my being, and my understanding to be the way for all eternity...nor yours or his. That would be such a drag, eh?

I'm very comfortable having my say, and you having yours, and letting it all coexist as we learn and observe from one another's perspectives.

Peace & blessings
7L

Thankyou, I suppose I could be more direct in my asking to deepen understanding of your view. So if you like ignore responding up there if that helps.


It seems to be arising both here and in Miss H's thread about the nature of our beliefs around spirit.

So maybe this will help you with less complexity.

DO you see yourself as separate to spirit? As spirit reflecting upon you into your being and not the other way around, meaning - That you are the reflection of the whole and that the non physical aspects are not you inclusive, reflecting in everything, here and now in this body and in all life as it is?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Actually Gem, there was one thing I did want to comment on. And it was a little further discussion of equanimity. It is probably among the least well known aspects of personal development across the broad swath of humanity.
And yet it is near and dear to so many of us.

As I see it, equanimity first and foremost means and brings balance...and with this, peace of mind and deeper centredness also typically result. All good things. But it is the nature of the balance you seek and which you individually may require that gives equanimity the depth and breadth of all its various permutations.

Yep, equanimity, balance, poise, peace of mind, stillness - a rose by another name. It basically means not reacting to the experience.

For me and for many like me, equanimity for the purposes of handling the fullness of my emotional capacity was already present. That was not the equanimity I experienced in more recent years on my journey. That equanimity was present in me from a young age.

But I realise you are correct in that it is not present in so many, and thus they suffer not only from the ebb and flow of strong emotion but also, due to lacking sufficient equanimity from early ages, they may graduate to detaching in the sense of numbing out to their emotions, simply as a way to cope.

I don't suggest numbing emotions, but perhaps for severe cases some avoidance is the usual survival strategy. It seems to to me that repressed trauma comes about in that way. It follows that later healing is founded on equanimity (the ability to feel without being overwhelmed).

This fundamental level of equanimity you are describing is absolutely necessary in order to fully experience your emotional range naturally and without fear -- I completely agree. But there are other aspects of equanimity...and again, there are probably strong individual and social components to those other aspects.

It's pretty simple equanimity is inverse in proportion to psychological reactivity. A proper meditation would bring about awareness of this and also reveal the persons limitations.

For me, it was not this fundamental aspect of equanimity that I lacked...rather, it was the aspect of equanimity that specifically relates to valuing and loving the self equally to that of others. This is another fundamental aspect of equanimity which has allowed me and many others to overcome social conditioning that says women should practice abnegation and should find their value in serving others at the expense of self. And yet this is a very destruction message, which results in a lot of misalignment and misdirection, spiritually speaking, involving various forms of physical and emotional trauma, abuse, and neglect for so many.

Indeed, many cultural norms entail inequitable and unrealistic expectations that cause people harm. I think in that case wer speak of equity, which pertain to social paradigms, where equanimity is usually descriptive of a personal disposition.

Equally dangerous and toxic, this message - once absorbed - allows for more pliant conditioning and commodification of the female person for general exploitation and degradation by others, who have also received the same message (and who also have to reject and overcome it, for their own growth -- here, equanimity in the sense I am describing will also allow them to value others equally to the self).

I'm pretty sure this has to do with equity, but I can see the corrolation. There's a deeper power issue to it written into the social narrative on gender and sexuality... and I'm reading Foucault's History of Sexuality now, actually.

Equanimity is such a beautiful thing in that it provides balance in many areas, each one equally fundamental and corrective in its own way.

Just thought I'd expand on that a bit.

Peace & blessings,
7L

I'd probaly use the term 'equity' in regards to social inequality, and use 'equanimity' to refer to disposition, just for the sake of making the distinction, but I agree there is a correlation.