Which me is me?

[naturesflow]

[quote]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I also have never read much of Tolle, though his quotes and excerpts from others often seemed on point, even if summed up or in high-level form.

What he describes here is what everyone who has experienced depression knows about. The "lifting" of the depressive state (perhaps having gone on for months or even years) is frequently if not always marked first not by the return of the feeling of well-being...which may be subtle or gradual...but by the re-colouring of your daily life, and of the world around you. Tastes, sounds, smells, sights...everything is experienced more deeply and once again you find yourself in the moment.

Reading this make me wonder about being immersed in depression, everything is there regardless of how I or another might be feeling, everything is there to see regardless of what I or another is seeing. It would only take a view or a feeling opened to feel and see more. In some ways this can occur spontaneously, for any number of reasons. Being present with yourself and opening that way, (inward reflecting) externally reaching outward for something to create something new. We really do seek out our own process and unfolding even without full realization of those processors we are engaging in ...Life calls us in so many ways and life affects us in so many ways. So where we are relating makes no difference, it really just creates a life and process the way we are creating it. Which of course is important to the whole process. If we tip the balance, balance seeks itself in some form of balance that life has created it, which is, everyway of itself.

This re-colouring is always tied to a particular day when first you became aware you'd "re-emerged", and it does make an impression. The awareness itself is a spiritual moment and has an uplifting quality.

This particular day would be about the unfolding that cannot be by passed perhaps? Even as some might determine things as spontaneous, it is in fact what many might refer as *timing* or as I have heard others refer- divine timing. Which really is that your ready for more. TO see more, feel more, your unknown opening to reveal itself. In some ways speaking like this really does make this earth appear to be a kind of *university* of life and learning, through the whole creation of life as it is. We are all part of that process collectively and individually and everything in process in everyway it is in process will be created and manifested as it will by everything we are.

If this has underlain Tolle's spiritual experiences, then this makes him more interesting IMO. Thanks for sharing.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Mr Interesting

Mr Tolle goes on to define this all or nothing falling off the cliff scenario as advantageous over the longer term coming to a realisation with the argument that the ego, or identified and attached self, basically has more to lose because of something approaching equanimity as the ego refines itself in accordance with what might be termed the actual higher self.

Yes...well said. The ego is slowly shown or guided by the higher self...and comes round slowly...such that the higher self is more and more actualised and increasingly comes through in one's daily life. Whilst the distance or dissonance between ego and higher self becomes smaller and smaller. Temporary setbacks notwithstanding

Argumentatively though this is of the ends justifies the means whereas the longer term process of skimming off ego and attachment seems more in line with the means justifying the ends and I tend towards this idea as being more practical in a sense of having the process, as it goes towards the end of the unattached self, being more available to others and of a material efficiency in the sense that slow change of the world around us feeds back into what could be an economy of spirituality.

Yes. This is a great concept and a great way to look at it all, from a more organic, interactive perspective. It seems that a fuller study of spirituality at this level is calling out to be observed, discussed, and revised (in the sense of the interactive growth of human consciousness at both micro and macro levels, and various associated measures of both individual & social change) .

There is also some possibility that one must of had at least some similar circumstances occur as what happened to Mr Tolle to at least have that inkling of a possible perspective to at the very least be able to define the position to take his words to heart which then leads to a wider definition of allowing all kinds of speech back from the point of enlightening which would then need as many perspectives as is possible to create the connections of the relevant perspectives the uninitiated would have.

With all this said I do think we're all getting better at such things to the extent that eventually an understanding of the accumulative ego of the novice would be seen in a better light as to what particular approach would be most valid even to the extent that less ego would be created from the outset of any individual life.

I think that would be an ideal long-term result...a more balanced individual across the globe, focused equally on the good of others as on his or her own good. And with the confidence to let the higher self lead (so to speak).

I saw a video yesterday of a dog balancing on a rope and it occurred to me that whilst a dog may only achieve the intelligence of a human at the age of three or four years old the fact they do so quickly, within months, and then have twelve to fifteen years to widen that expression was,for me, a very interesting possibility.

Hahaha...so if dogs reach maturity at a year, we'd need to live nearly 18 to 20 times (allowing for brain maturity too) as long as we currently do, to enjoy things as dogs do. We've got a looooong way to go...but at least we've got them to show us the way.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[naturesflow]

You really only get from life what you put into it. So where your putting in, is filling up regardless even without full awareness. So if your full of pain, eventually that pain in your own balance will tip the scale back on itself. How that occurs is mostly related to the process your in process with for your own path and how you have managed that pain in yourself and life as one. For some it may mean an entire life of pain body for some and death may bring the balance. But who knows, I don't. :)

[7luminaries]

[quote=naturesflow]

Reading this make me wonder about being immersed in depression, everything is there regardless of how I or another might be feeling, everything is there to see regardless of what I or another is seeing. It would only take a view or a feeling opened to feel and see more. In some ways this can occur spontaneously, for any number of reasons. Being present with yourself and opening that way, (inward reflecting) externally reaching outward for something to create something new. We really do seek out our own process and unfolding even without full realization of those processors we are engaging in ...Life calls us in so many ways and life affects us in so many ways. So where we are relating makes no difference, it really just creates a life and process the way we are creating it. Which of course is important to the whole process. If we tip the balance, balance seeks itself in some form of balance that life has created it, which is, everyway of itself.

This particular day would be about the unfolding that cannot be by passed perhaps? Even as some might determine things as spontaneous, it is in fact what many might refer as *timing* or as I have heard others refer- divine timing. Which really is that your ready for more. TO see more, feel more, your unknown opening to reveal itself. In some ways speaking like this really does make this earth appear to be a kind of *university* of life and learning, through the whole creation of life as it is. We are all part of that process collectively and individually and everything in process in everyway it is in process will be created and manifested as it will by everything we are.

I think that's all true...I've certainly learnt alot about working with energy and/or light/colour to assess spiritual, emotional, and physical health and balance. It reveals the truth of the body on all levels, including the energy body, which connects and is connected to all aspects of your being. The body and what we call the soul or the higher self have a purity, innocence and truth that reveal everything, including where love is lacking and things are out of balance. Particularly in the realm of spirit, the purity and strength of what is, the simple truth of your being, is absolute bliss as so many have experienced.

I know that when you are in a state of depression, even mild depression, you don't realise it fully but the fullness of colour is dampened or drained off because depression takes you somewhat out of the now, in a very specific way. Just like shock, trauma, grief, or similar...all of which can cause forms of depression....you are (in energetic terms) cut off from your heart centre, or partially cut off. When you reach a tipping point in your healing, the colour (physical sensory awareness and being in the moment more fully) returns such that it makes a conscious impression.

Again, in energetic terms, depression means is some of your channels are blocked or damaged, both energetically (and ultimately physically) and are in need of healing. Often it is just as the psychologists have said...grief and anger are often buried deep. The spiritual, emotional, physical and psychological sources need to be owned and honoured. Loss, shock, injury, trauma or abuse, and so forth are real causes of depression and everything needs its own time to be processed.

Whilst in a state of depression, you yourself cannot do much but ride it out and stay open to the pain. Not fun but very effective at lessening the duration. Grounding and flowing are key. To say that you need to bolster your water and earth elements are an understatement. It is the only way. You need to consciously nurture &/or muster large and ever-replenishing amounts, hahaha! And they must work together...you must be simultaneously deeply rooted in the known of who you are (energy of earth) and yet flexible, interconnected, and open to the unknown of who you are (water energy), through grace and Spirit, to ride the waves.

If you, your personality, your constitution, your work or your daily life, &/or your society does not build or reinforce the elements of water and earth, then your middle chakras are vulnerable...particularly the heart chakra, which is vulnerable to depression and stress on every level, including the physical. To say that Western society does not honour the balance we all need in our lives is pretty obvious...and that's true for many societies.

But it is the simple honouring of Maslow's hierarchy (a modern parallel of the chakras without the energy and metaphysical stuff) that allows us to honour our need to nurture the body and the heart, to grieve, to deal with trauma, depression, and so forth, and thus to heal and seek other things like lifelong learning, peace of mind, equanimity, and various other individual and communal endeavours.

Otherwise depression could keep a person trapped in this state for far longer, ages even. If you have learnt to work with energy for healing, particularly heart healing, it is extremely helpful BTW. Supporting yourself positively and staying connected in ways that work for you, whenever possible, are also extremely helpful. So if we're here to learn, I've learnt some useful things (for me) in the realm of energy work and heart healing.

And apologies to Gem if I was a bit off topic...
As to the me and the me...IMO the one that is always seeking to be heard is the you at centre. Which some call the soul and others, the higher or core self (or Buddha nature). The one that has to learn to listen is the conscious mind, which is interwoven with our ego for both survival and individuation (and they too were interwoven).

Because the truths of the soul or embodied consciousness are often delivered in packages of core, deep-seated emotion (such as pain and intensity), they are often difficult to face or sort. The eternal truths (I am worthy of love or I need to honour the body and rest) may need to be parsed a bit from the pain (feeling abandoned or feeling wounded or exhausted) in order for us to process the eternal truths. But not too much...the body's truths are delivered in their wholeness, and that's how they are best received and sorted IMO, with all their colours, difficult as it may be.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Yes so I guess in some ways it lays there dormant, waiting to make the *connection*, to become aware we are aware. So that moment even as defining for him in his way became, might be a moment we all have in the now at some point perhaps in potential? If you look at his life leading up to that moment, you could say it was an instantaneous shift from what had been so far/in his process for him, but he could see himself more clearly at that point of his own process. His painbody was about himself and he probably didn't blame the devil or god. Could he have had this had he not let go to the depth he did in his process? I mean people call this stuff gods intervention, the holy spirit intervening, a miracle, but you don't necessarily have this stuff happen because you believe in anything of that nature, it can happen to those who are just being and living their life as they are, no belief at all. Just immersed in themselves as they are. (I don't know if he had beliefs in this way I should add, maybe you would know this, it has been that long since I read this book, that the that now is no longer now..lol )

I am only exploring this, nothing in me is fixed with my flow of ideas, I should add.

If you don't know yourself as being more than the me confined then that other me is going to make itself known one way or another perhaps? So if you believe the other me is God outside of yourself or spirit outside of yourself and not you as it all creating in this aware, then you may never fully see yourself as being the awareness/creator of your own life as you are and are being.





Yes I get it. But through my own separation and perceived state of fear or painbody as he often refers to it as, we create some funny ideas about ourselves, I know I did. I guess if we become detached enough in our thinking, we actually allow ourselves some space to observe ourselves more so, being more present with ourselves in the now that we are holding onto and seeing ourselves as it all creating it all. And then naturally asking yourself, who is the one creating this separation of me's, because I certainly don't believe anyone else is creating this in me but me? I think for someone without beliefs in something outside of themselves would potentially have more hope of seeing themselves more clearly than with them.

I think Tolle gets at the 'funny ideas' when he noticed that peculiar thought, 'I' live with 'myself'. This I think is true of the dilemma people face, that division of selves. On this is the story about a person who is the product of the past, both in their life and intergenerationally and also out of society.

My view is, the next story about how all these life problems need to be resolved first before the light comes on is just a continuation of the same story about 'myself'. As Tolle describes, being in that deep depression and anxiety did not have to be processed. He just noticed that funny idea: a 'myself' that 'I' have to live with, and immediately touched the void.

I was so stunned by this strange realization that my mind stopped. I was fully conscious, but there were no more thoughts. Then I felt drawn into what seemed like a vortex of energy. It was a slow movement at first and then accelerated. I was gripped by an intense fear, and my body started to shake. I heard the words "resist nothing," as if spoken inside my chest. I could feel myself being sucked into a void. It felt as if the void was inside myself rather than outside. Suddenly, there was no more fear, and I let myself fall into that void.

[wolfgaze]

Originally Posted by vespa68

It definately was not in a day. There are many steps involved in letting your higher self take over but he could not explain all that in a book. I did like his book however because he did explain how things work but its not so easy as he says. He is talking about facing fears, facing oneslef to find the highest truth of who you are. This takes a long time and what he describes was only the first time it happened to him. But belive me he had much further to go along.

He does say (elsewhere) that what happened to him is uncommon... Not in the sense that it makes him special, just that people usually do not experience the shift in awareness in the manner that he did...

"For most people, spiritual awakening is a gradual process. Rarely does it happen all at once. When it does, though, it is usually brought about by intense suffering. That was certainly true in my case." ~ Eckhart Tolle

[wolfgaze]

Originally Posted by Gracey

Thanks for the links, I have avoided his books and stuff for years. Good time to pay attention to them now.

Gracey, here is an excellent series of videos someone composed using audio commentary from Tolle's book 'Stillness Speaks'... The videos are additionally nice because the commentary is set to beautiful nature scenery and relaxing music... These will give you a good idea about the nature of his thoughts and the style of his writing/communication...

The Now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkgNIJLpBEI

Suffering & The End Of Suffering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDd-_Mdeksc

Silence & Stillness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B0n4IGVWEc

Acceptance & Surrender
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9JgLgBtV-M

Death & The Eternal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ft1rYcht0c

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Mr Interesting

Mr Tolle goes on to define this all or nothing falling off the cliff scenario as advantageous over the longer term coming to a realisation with the argument that the ego, or identified and attached self, basically has more to lose because of something approaching equanimity as the ego refines itself in accordance with what might be termed the actual higher self.

I sometimes talk something like an all or nothing, and I simply don't believe there is a process in this regard. I steer clear of stories about a higher self. He makes a good point about equanimity. I don't think we want the 'ego' to refine itself, because my view is, that is actually more like a cleverer disguise for the 'ego'.

Ego according to Tolle:
The term ego means different things to different people, but when I use it here it means a false self, created by unconscious identification with the mind.

In the meditation at the ashram I found the pure equanimity of the mind, and it effectively revealed the ego. It can not attach to me with a still mind. This was clear and tangable - I could watch it as though as though it was a ghost who was very convincing, making me believe it was me. As I watched it with calm curiosity, it became all panicky and I could sense it trying to find a gap in my attention which it could use to get back into me without me noticing it - unconsciously. This isn't something that can integrate with the stillness of being... it has to die.

When I watched this scene of Peaceful Warrior, it was like a deja vu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp53t2ivDYs

The integration is something I experience through the body, but there's no self impressionism or imagery involved with that one. I think that's a side affect of self awareness?

Argumentatively though this is of the ends justifies the means whereas the longer term process of skimming off ego and attachment seems more in line with the means justifying the ends and I tend towards this idea as being more practical in a sense of having the process, as it goes towards the end of the unattached self, being more available to others and of a material efficiency in the sense that slow change of the world around us feeds back into what could be an economy of spirituality.

I think that's right, justifying the ends. I consider ends to be a futuristic projection of 'myself', which I consider to be the projection of 'ego' through time. I'm not sure what kind of story goes on about whoever is getting to the end, but I do believe in listening to what is being said in stories that pertain to 'myself'.

There is also some possibility that one must of had at least some similar circumstances occur as what happened to Mr Tolle to at least have that inkling of a possible perspective to at the very least be able to define the position to take his words to heart which then leads to a wider definition of allowing all kinds of speech back from the point of enlightening which would then need as many perspectives as is possible to create the connections of the relevant perspectives the uninitiated would have.

I'm sure everyone has a very immediate sense of their own presence of being, but maybe it's just the mind trying to figure it out, after the fact, that makes it somewhat obscure?

With all this said I do think we're all getting better at such things to the extent that eventually an understanding of the accumulative ego of the novice would be seen in a better light as to what particular approach would be most valid even to the extent that less ego would be created from the outset of any individual life.

I saw a video yesterday of a dog balancing on a rope and it occurred to me that whilst a dog may only achieve the intelligence of a human at the age of three or four years old the fact they do so quickly, within months, and then have twelve to fifteen years to widen that expression was,for me, a very interesting possibility.

[wolfgaze]

Gem here is another similar observation on par with what is being communicated in the opening post...

How often do we hear people say something along the lines of "My mind won't stop running", or "My mind is driving me crazy"... We would say this to ourselves but never really stop and become aware of the profound realization that the 'mind' in this instance is being referenced as an object... The 'my' is a possessive pronoun and this directly infers that we exist as the subject and the mind is the object that we express possession of... Therefore we are not and cannot be it (the mind)! "Awareness transcends what it is aware of." ~ Michael Singer... We do not exist as the physical mind (brain), but rather utilize it as a tool during this human lifetime. When we foster this awareness sufficiently, we learn to stop seeking an identity in our physical mind's activity and whatever it's doing - we stop mistaking it for our higher sense of self (identity)... This is how we bring about liberation - freedom from mental suffering... We stop getting lost in the mind's influence and we discover the 'self' that exists above and independent of the physical body & mind.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by wolfgaze

He does say (elsewhere) that what happened to him is uncommon... Not in the sense that it makes him special, just that people usually do not experience the shift in awareness in the manner that he did...

"For most people, spiritual awakening is a gradual process. Rarely does it happen all at once. When it does, though, it is usually brought about by intense suffering. That was certainly true in my case." ~ Eckhart Tolle

Tolles account of what happened to himself sounds like an apt description - but I don't believe the quote in blue is accurate.