Rather removing karma or growing from it?

Originally Posted by Jyotir

(edited from a previous post of mine in another thread)


Keep in mind that karma is always being generated at every moment by every life, and can be altered as part of free-will within that incessant generation. It is not arbitrary. Neither is it antithetical to, or mutually exclusive of free-will. Rather it is essential to it, otherwise there would be chaos, and utter randomicity - "accidents" (which the mind in its ignorance assigns as attribute to what it cannot fathom as cause-effect relationship. The entire universe(s) is formed of the Intention, Vision, and Will of Lives. We as individuals have a limited version in our little lives, personal "universe" which is part and parcel of greater lives and wills...

All life is subsumed (like the individual cells within a body) within greater "Lives" who or which are also generating karma which is necessarily recipient by those subsumed. Adding to that, human beings are a ceaselessly shifting complex amalgam of vastly different consciousness/energetics that we as individuals are not fully aware of the activity or import in our lives...even as these are instrumental to the generation of karma, but gradually become more aware of as the soul appropriates the life, or seen another way, as the lower aspects of life begin to surrender to the higher.

Note that >>>Intention is also "action" and as such also generates karma.

There are 3 kinds of karma:

1) that which is currently being generated (offers the potential for alteration of #2 or 3,
is the innate capacity to transform "fate", or generate new possibility, including ascension of consciousness)

2) that which is already generated, is latent but not currently expressing

3) that which has been generated and is currently expressing

There are no accidents - that is a mental superimposition based on an aversion to the Law (and as seen as concept) of karma (i.e., accident being something the being finds inconvenient, disturbing, destructive to expectation etc., or "good accidents" - simply karma from previous action or intention seen as beneficial. All of it cause and effect regardless of how perceived by ego-mind. Interpretation doesn't alter LAW. But that still doesn’t negate free-will which includes the possibility of altering previous karma - - also part of that LAW.

In a Life that is a multiplicity of individual wills and forces, there is also the possibility of intrusion of another's will/free will into any other life or being which also generates karma.

There is an infallible and continuous preservation and transformation (re-creation) of the entire universe at every moment which also includes the increasing free-will of beings who generate karma that eventually manifests or is altered. That alteration is also karma!

It is spirituality which is the personal revolution - the recognition, invocation, and utilization of That which accelerates the ascension of consciousness by the receptivity to available free-will to transform within the evolutionary scheme. The important thing is that the new experiences and developing patterns be progressive, and that is really what spirituality is: when that life-process becomes conscious and deliberate, not random and haphazard. It is a concentration of deliberate karma generation in the progressive direction.

It's complex and nuanced with innumerable 'moving parts' and layers, and why so little understood by simplistic theories, platitudes, and dismissals.


~ J

Excellent explanation; thank you so much, Jyotir.

How much can we transcend; how much can we change course?

Namaste,

JL

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

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Interesting Greenslade. I have had the experience of seeing effects before the cause - it only happened once - but it was so clear at the time.

The brain is quantum-capable but the details aren't known as yet, so what you're saying is scientifically plausible. So if it happened just the once does that mean there is more to come? For all we know it could be happening more often than we realise.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there Altair


Assuming karma exists, what is it? As far as I can see today's karma is nothing more than reward/punishment mentality, it's fodder for the guilt complexes and the downward spirals of a lack of self esteem. That's usually how the discussions play out in the threads at least. Today's bad karma is for something that was done in a Past Life, and that may well have been driven by something other than Spirituality. Someone very wise once said "Change the word, change the paradigm" and that's very insightful because our reality is largely based on words and our definitions of them. As for it being a bond, personally I'd call that Love not karma - the cliche of the things we do for Love.

Yes, call it a bond or call it love.. I prefer them over 'karma' or 'attachment'. Why? Because those deeply cultural-religious concepts are loaded and hint at the 'need' to *remove* it. See also the question of the poll. To accept that you ''carry karma'' also insinuates you ought to ''do something about it''. It is incredible how language impacts our beliefs and how we develop them. If we instead use a word such as 'love' or 'bond' to describe a relationship with a friend, pet, family member, place, hobby etc. we come to a different understanding. IOW, choose your words carefully, as they will define your approach and beliefs and impact the outcome.

[BlueElephant]

Yes, Greenslade - once powerfully and clearly which was 20 years ago. I think you are correct - Yes, it might happen with us not so realizably.... Or maybe it only happens when we are knocked off linear time in some way, which is what was happening to me for a number of weeks at that time period.

The word karma is a Sanskrit word that means "action",in some instances it means action and re-action, etc. Obviously it has come to mean other things in forgien countries and people choose to use it in many ways.

Altair: One way to look at Karma -it's use as it is now in Humanistic application and the purely Spiritual (Transcendent) application - and mixing the two might be the confusion - if there is any... Just a thought.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Which is relative to the ego-mind that exists within the constraints of linear time. In Spirituality there is no time and in science, all of time is happening all of the time and all of time affects all of time all of the time. That means causality loops where effect can come before cause. 'Ascension' is also a word of the ego-mind, it only has validity in the dimensions of form where there is a 'here' and 'there'. The ego-mind can use 'ascension' as an object of status.

You're very welcome Greenslade.

Yes, of course ego-mind is limited within the constraints of linear time. That is a direct result of its very nature and functioning. Therefore non-linear-time is not within its purview. But here we are in the physical with an ego-mind, which is partially of the physical nature, and therefore constrained by linear time!!

So, when ego-mind resists, rejects, and refuses the non-linear supra-rational faith inherent in spirituality, which is simply a reflection or partial awareness of the Truth of the totality of Being / Highest Self (that obviously includes the non-linear), it is because it sees that as a threat to its false sovereignty and ignorant prerogatives as a presumed separate entity in linear time, especially as that is reinforced, defined, and circumscribed by “science”, a rational objective linearly reasoned method of material inquiry.

Such as when ego mind reasons in a linear way and sees the results of its own ignorance as cause -e.g., “causality loops” - because the result is seen as an arbitrary intrusion, a disturbing aberration (“it‘s non-linear!!”), and defensively dismisses its own role in the regeneration of its ignorance….and the karmic results.

The specious argument that attempts to dismiss the Law of Karma by the presumed axiomatic mutual exclusion of linear vs. non-linear time in its manifestation or perception is a falsehood - - it is irrelevant. In whatever way it may be perceived, whether in linear or non-linear context - karma is simply the necessary effect or result from actual cause, unless altered. Simple. Meanwhile, Spirit has access to all time or no time within an indivisible movement and sees each containing the others. It is aware of all tendencies, energies and forces as the diverse play of unity and knows their relation to each other in the single movement of the one spirit.

In the same way that ego may use ‘ascension’ as an object of status* - this isn’t axiomatic by any means, but only a possibility - by the same device of reason, ego-mind may also vigorously establish a similar status of its own victim-hood in misconstruing the results of its own ignorant intentions and actions as the causal mechanism of its dysfunction. This is perceived as extrinsic to self - an assault - and importantly therefore requires the dire necessity of ego self-defense and self-preservation from such intrusion; in spiritual terms: the preservation of the self-same ignorant cognition as a virtual identity (even though false).

*(a long recognized hazard of novice aspirants, but importantly points to the necessity to remove ego from spiritual practice- - not the removal of spirituality from ego!)

By clever denial of responsibility, by not seeing a causal connection, by seeing result as extrinsic cause or intrusion, ego-mind creates a schism of self from self. So it argues abstractly and incessantly about truth, while having no real practical necessity for it. Welcome to a strange world of confusion, arbitrary intrusion - linear/non-linear it doesn‘t matter - and consequent behavioral dysfunction. Its like an world class expert, a know-it-all authority on rugs, who keeps pulling the rug out from under its own feet, and yet blaming the rug for its precarious footing and yet waxing mystically and authoritatively about a resigned impotence (or fear) to do anything about it, because that would be Spiritual and therefore (as perversely reasoned), dangerous and self-destructive (!?!?!).

This is why non or anti-spiritual rational-materialists don’t like the idea or construct of karma - they only see the superficial “objective” results, but conveniently (perversely and falsely) blame those - the results of its own faulty limited partial deficient distorted consciousness - to rationalize its self-styled status of victim-hood - “randomness is assailing me!!” “accidents are assaulting me!” “it’s so unfair to blame the victim!!” - which 90% of the time is the self-fulfillment of its own ignorance. The world as we know it is a churning sea of this dynamic of misdirected reactivity (which is also generating karma in endless cycles)

'Ascension' is also a word of the ego-mind, it only has validity in the dimensions of form where there is a 'here' and 'there'.

Yes true because it applies to qualities of consciousness that ego-mind induces and infers in its stifled linear physical-based concrete reasoning as “here” and “there”. That is its limitation and why ego-cognition must be transformed, annihilated, transcended, or surrendered to a higher principle - which is precisely what all spiritual practice seeks to undertake and attain.

No wonder there is confusion in the incessant recycling of its own ignorance seen as a constant unfair intrusion that it has to resist, fight, and be confused about, and have to extricate by perverse rationalizations - vs true transformation - when ego-mind itself is the cause of this intrusion which is the result of its past action, or future action - again, makes no difference. What actually matters is the true essence of “here” or “there”, which is...

... the quality of consciousness within intention and action.


~ J

Originally Posted by Altair

Yes, call it a bond or call it love.. I prefer them over 'karma' or 'attachment'. Why? Because those deeply cultural-religious concepts are loaded and hint at the 'need' to *remove* it. See also the question of the poll. To accept that you ''carry karma'' also insinuates you ought to ''do something about it''. It is incredible how language impacts our beliefs and how we develop them. If we instead use a word such as 'love' or 'bond' to describe a relationship with a friend, pet, family member, place, hobby etc. we come to a different understanding. IOW, choose your words carefully, as they will define your approach and beliefs and impact the outcome.

Regardless of what people think, Spirituality is not driven by Spirituality and this is often at the heart of the confusion. If you look at some of the forum chatter regarding 'karma' it's not really that difficult to tear huge holes in in, yet people are still going to hold to their beliefs. For instance, if there is no time how does that affect one's Karma? In science all of time is happening all of the time and all of time affects all of time all of the time. That means sometimes affect precedes cause, so where does karma sit with that? Those are the questions I'm still waiting for.

Someone once said to me, "Change the word, change the paradigm." 'Karma has become a word of paradigm, it reflects thinking and not truth or even common sense sometimes. Often all it says is "I am a victim." It's that mentality that can become what defines karma and also Spirituality.

Your reality is defined by your perceptions, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs, your beliefs are defined by your definitions. There's a lot more to it than that but it's a start at least. So yes, your words are the co-creators of your consciousness - if you weren't aware of the word 'Spirituality' would you be aware of anything within it? In a recent study they found that people who have no word for a certain colour don't see it, while others who have a single word for all the shades of a colour can't differentiate between shades. Kinda makes you wonder how that impacts on Spirituality, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

Yes, Greenslade - once powerfully and clearly which was 20 years ago. I think you are correct - Yes, it might happen with us not so realizably.... Or maybe it only happens when we are knocked off linear time in some way, which is what was happening to me for a number of weeks at that time period.

The word karma is a Sanskrit word that means "action",in some instances it means action and re-action, etc. Obviously it has come to mean other things in forgien countries and people choose to use it in many ways.

Did you know that your sense of smell is down to quantum theory?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P7B_LkSlKQ

So, where does non-linear time sit with karma?

I had a spell when I was going through what Matt Khan described as Ascension Symptoms, apparently it was a by-product of being a part of the First Wave of Ascension. What he described was what I was going through at the time and it made a lot of sense. Time dilations was a part of it too, and often my consciousness would step out of linear time - sometimes stepping out of time altogether. Often it was very disconcerting when I came back. It was interesting because it showed me that my consciousness was 'independent' of physical functioning when it wanted to be.

Exactly, people choose to use it in many ways and that's when it becomes something other than Spirituality, and often it becomes a reinforcement of what one wants to believe. What people are not talking about is 'karma', what they are actually talking about is 'kamma-vipaka'. Kamma means intention and intention is what creates action. 'Vipaka' is the 'results' of that intention and it's that which needs to be paid attention to. The kamma-vipaka or the results of intention of understanding what factors have the agency are very different to the kamma-vipaka of expressing victim mentality as karma. Kamma-vipaka is the 'ethical component' of karma, the intention to sow determines the outcome, not what you sow.

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Yes, of course ego-mind is limited within the constraints of linear time. That is a direct result of its very nature and functioning. Therefore non-linear-time is not within its purview. But here we are in the physical with an ego-mind, which is partially of the physical nature, and therefore constrained by linear time!!

So, when ego-mind resists, rejects, and refuses the non-linear supra-rational faith inherent in spirituality, which is simply a reflection or partial awareness of the Truth of the totality of Being / Highest Self (that obviously includes the non-linear), it is because it sees that as a threat to its false sovereignty and ignorant prerogatives as a presumed separate entity in linear time, especially as that is reinforced, defined, and circumscribed by “science”, a rational objective linearly reasoned method of material inquiry.

You once said that the Jungian definition of the word 'ego' has no relevance to the Spiritual Adept, and while you seem to shun psychology you didn't seem to have a problem in redefining the word 'ego' for your own reasons and then proceeding to psychoanalyse the ego. Interestingly, the ancients did not actually separate religion/Spirituality/philosophy and what is today know as psychology. Indeed, Jung's model of the ego is based on Ahamkara and what today is known as cognitive behaviour - which comes into play while ignoring the scientific understandings and to substitute personal definitions based on agenda - seems to be very much akin to what was known as 'Chitta'. If you're going to understand the non-Spiritual aspects in greater detail and understanding then you should research cognitive behaviour and cognitive dissonance, because both of those are key factors in truly understanding what you're describing here.

The so-called ego-mind is very capable of encompassing supra-rational faith, as every church=goer and many more will tell you.

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Such as when ego mind reasons in a linear way and sees the results of its own ignorance as cause -e.g., “causality loops” - because the result is seen as an arbitrary intrusion, a disturbing aberration (“it‘s non-linear!!”), and defensively dismisses its own role in the regeneration of its ignorance….and the karmic results.

Karmic results are the results of the ego-mind (using your definition, by the way). The mind has a need for agency, it's a well-known and documented psychological phenomenon as the mind attempts to rationalise and make sense of what it either doesn't have the capacity to understand or is ignorant of sufficient information. By 'karmic results' you mean kamma-vipaka, perhaps?

Originally Posted by Jyotir

The specious argument that attempts to dismiss the Law of Karma by the presumed axiomatic mutual exclusion of linear vs. non-linear time in its manifestation or perception is a falsehood - - it is irrelevant. In whatever way it may be perceived, whether in linear or non-linear context - karma is simply the necessary effect or result from actual cause, unless altered. Simple. Meanwhile, Spirit has access to all time or no time within an indivisible movement and sees each containing the others. It is aware of all tendencies, energies and forces as the diverse play of unity and knows their relation to each other in the single movement of the one spirit.

Linear time is a human construct and karma exists within that construct. Science has shown that affect can precede cause so it becomes less of a 'law'.

Originally Posted by Jyotir

In the same way that ego may use ‘ascension’ as an object of status* - this isn’t axiomatic by any means, but only a possibility - by the same device of reason, ego-mind may also vigorously establish a similar status of its own victim-hood in misconstruing the results of its own ignorant intentions and actions as the causal mechanism of its dysfunction. This is perceived as extrinsic to self - an assault - and importantly therefore requires the dire necessity of ego self-defense and self-preservation from such intrusion; in spiritual terms: the preservation of the self-same ignorant cognition as a virtual identity (even though false).

Originally Posted by Jyotir

*(a long recognized hazard of novice aspirants, but importantly points to the necessity to remove ego from spiritual practice- - not the removal of spirituality from ego!)

Only within your own definition of the ego-mind, which itself is based on ignorance. So unless you have some kind of empirical data other than your own opinions this is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Jyotir

By clever denial of responsibility, by not seeing a causal connection, by seeing result as extrinsic cause or intrusion, ego-mind creates a schism of self from self. So it argues abstractly and incessantly about truth, while having no real practical necessity for it. Welcome to a strange world of confusion, arbitrary intrusion - linear/non-linear it doesn‘t matter - and consequent behavioral dysfunction. Its like an world class expert, a know-it-all authority on rugs, who keeps pulling the rug out from under its own feet, and yet blaming the rug for its precarious footing and yet waxing mystically and authoritatively about a resigned impotence (or fear) to do anything about it, because that would be Spiritual and therefore (as perversely reasoned), dangerous and self-destructive (!?!?!).

You mean destructive cognitive behaviour - interestingly I'm currently taking a practitioner's course on it. Isn't causality linear though?

Originally Posted by Jyotir

This is why non or anti-spiritual rational-materialists don’t like the idea or construct of karma - they only see the superficial “objective” results, but conveniently (perversely and falsely) blame those - the results of its own faulty limited partial deficient distorted consciousness - to rationalize its self-styled status of victim-hood - “randomness is assailing me!!” “accidents are assaulting me!” “it’s so unfair to blame the victim!!” - which 90% of the time is the self-fulfillment of its own ignorance. The world as we know it is a churning sea of this dynamic of misdirected reactivity (which is also generating karma in endless cycles)

I have to agree with you there.

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Yes true because it applies to qualities of consciousness that ego-mind induces and infers in its stifled linear physical-based concrete reasoning as “here” and “there”. That is its limitation and why ego-cognition must be transformed, annihilated, transcended, or surrendered to a higher principle - which is precisely what all spiritual practice seeks to undertake and attain.

Said like a true zealot. To be frank I don't see any real point in attempting to discuss the part the ego plays in all of this because you've previously shown your disdain for anything I would have to say on the matter, it seems anything I have to say on the ego offends your sensibilities and in that regard, it's a long way past the point of diminishing returns.

Originally Posted by Jyotir

No wonder there is confusion in the incessant recycling of its own ignorance seen as a constant unfair intrusion that it has to resist, fight, and be confused about, and have to extricate by perverse rationalizations - vs true transformation - when ego-mind itself is the cause of this intrusion which is the result of its past action, or future action - again, makes no difference. What actually matters is the true essence of “here” or “there”, which is...

... the quality of consciousness within intention and action.


~ J

Some would say that the Law of Karma is a perverse rationalisation because it's nothing more than the irrational mind attempting to put some kind of order into a perceptual reality that is seeking agency and order, in the way that Fate, Destiny or even God himself is directing our Lives and we are merely pawns. Such as looking to one's horoscopes and producing start-charts according to birth dates and times.

It's also the so-called 'ego-mind' that us concerned with the 'quality' of consciousness and what matters or not, those are of thestereotypical ego. Intention and action are also 'driven' by ego and are certainly not driven by Spirituality. The inclusion of linear time means that the ego-mind can find status in being Spiritual or that its intentions are honourable and that it can transcend itself..... yadda yadda.

It's not until we question - really, honestly question - our reasons and intentions that - if you are going to use the term - a "quality of consciousness" comes through. Believing in karma and reinforcing one's own beliefs to that end is one kamma-vipaka, seeking a greater understanding beyond the ideologies and theologies is a very different kamma-vipaka. Some of us are not seeking to understand the ideologies and theologies, some of us are trying to understand our own existential experiences and how we as a singularity of consciousness relate to what is perceptually the wider Universe.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Your reality is defined by your perceptions, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs, your beliefs are defined by your definitions. There's a lot more to it than that but it's a start at least. So yes, your words are the co-creators of your consciousness - if you weren't aware of the word 'Spirituality' would you be aware of anything within it? In a recent study they found that people who have no word for a certain colour don't see it, while others who have a single word for all the shades of a colour can't differentiate between shades. Kinda makes you wonder how that impacts on Spirituality, doesn't it?

We are a 'whole' being, everything that is part of us finds itself back in our 'spirituality'. Beliefs, words used, concepts adopted, the lifestyle you have, the things you put into your body, the practices you perform, the people you surround yourself with. It is one system, with its many parts influencing one another.

Considering words, if I call a bond I have with someone ''karma'' or ''attachment'', or I call it ''love'' or ''affection'', it will make a great difference in outcome. Some religions and paths seem to wish to end the human, and that ain't my cup of tea. This poll here is biased but how many people noticed it? Remove what exactly? And why? What even triggered people to think of things in such a way?

You make very good points in your last post, Greenslade.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Some would say that the Law of Karma is a perverse rationalisation because it's nothing more than the irrational mind attempting to put some kind of order into a perceptual reality that is seeking agency and order, in the way that Fate, Destiny or even God himself is directing our Lives and we are merely pawns. Such as looking to one's horoscopes and producing start-charts according to birth dates and times.

We project our human sense of meaning and desire for order upon everything else, but there's zero proof there's a soul in a spider and in a bug, and the two will meet again in a future incarnation. The cycle of incarnations with deliberate purpose is also highly dubious. Not to mention, species go extinct and 'simple' lifeforms haven't gone away. The whole attempt of projecting our humanity on nature is kinda rubbish. This is what a bunch of priests from a priestly class came up with, in a society that was/is highly structured along caste, and projected this upon other lifeforms.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Altair

We project our human sense of meaning and desire for order upon everything .

Consider following facts from history. History speaks loudly where the reality weighs in. Those who followed discipline and order reached the pole position in world (british, Europeans , americans, Japanese, chinese, Indians (800-1000 years back when was called Golden bird and everybody wanted to do business with it and british/French/ portugese/ dutch travelled 21000 KM sea distance circumnavigating Africa and in whose search Columbus discovered America) ) -all followed discipline and order in their way to pole position and while in pole position. And the reverse also is true for very same / other people . The problems of current day India can very well be traced to totally chaotic/unscientific/undisciplined approaches it used in last millennium.

So now I leave the choice to you .

Re caste system -Caste system as known to you and to the most is the most pervert/degenerated form . Most people of India now , current rulers don't support it and very rightly so for valid reasons . Caste system which India rigorously practiced earlier was real specialization of occupations and professions and treating them specially /differently for their specialization (not as higher /lower people ) . Even the most advanced countries todays also have specialization among people and treat people differently (not discriminate) as per their specialization . And this kind of specialization though one form of different /unequal treatment is not bad or wrong .

Prolonged spiritual lethargy , political defeats ,economic poverty and destruction of own education system brought India where it is today.
Hope this can explain u the importance of discipline and order in life.