Should we even be spiritual while incarnated in the physis? And why do we incarnate?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'm with SD, I can't be ars_ed either.

That’s nice. Cool.

Originally Posted by BigJohn

GREAT OBSERVATION
But then...... some people love pointing their finger at others probably because they have nothing better to do.
SAD

I like what you did there, did you notice? Very Trumpian - but more seriously the conversation was about the truth of teachings, not about personalities or upmanship or pride. Some people like to make it seem like that because that’s how they think “spirituality” works. YMMV,

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

You have just so eloquently described the argumentative derision of every single post made in every single thread on this forum since inception...bravo!

Here is some food for thought for both yourself and for others which may also illuminate my position on this forum as well.

For all intents and purposes, I am an "old-school" Hindu...being raised and enmeshed within the ideals of Sanatana Dharma which proliferated during the middle of the last century (and for many centuries before that).

Spirituality was all about "what is it that I must lose?" rather than "what is it that I hope to gain?" The whole emphasis was placed squarely upon penance, austerity, dedication, patience, surrender, focus....TAPASYA. This rigorous practice was implemented to sort out the true seekers of the Truth from the whining "mummy boys" who obviously didn't want Moksha BAD enough to relinquish all their bougoise comforts to attain it...they wanted the best of both worlds, yet could never find peace in either of them ..so, they ended up criticising and blaming a long standing practice and tradition which existed for thousands of years, because it did not cater or tailor to them and their egos personally and thus, the New Age was born, with such people opting for a totally diluted, watered down version of Hinduism, and the overall practice of Sadhana, if that meant they didn't have to make any adjustments to their current lifestyle or mindset ..merely "wanting" to be on a spiritual path, but not really having what it takes to actually BE on one...and we can see the whole fallout from all that over the past 50 years or so.

If anybody found it "insufferable", the teacher would simply tell them to go away and to return again when they were able to suffer it. It was all a lot simpler back then.

....but like I said, I am of the traditional lot, but I also cannot help but feel in my heart of hearts, this is why religion is on the decline.

It is not because of the waning belief in God, nor is it due to any past track record of "organised spirituality"....it is because of the commitment to convention, or rather the total lack of it. People don't like rules, regulations, being told what they need to do to achieve spiritual progress, being shown any scriptures...they want everything done their way or no way at all and this has led to the quagmire of confusion, irrationality, charlatans and questionable practices which now passes itself off as "modern spirituality" and it is also the whole reason why it is that I have had quite a difficult time intergrating into this whole scene, because all I find myself forever muttering is "such is Kali Yuga".

Yes, and on forums you have people with rationality bent sermons on how spirituality is just sitting on a toilet and doing whatever one wants. Or how suspect spirituality is and how much they secretly hate it, and loathe its ideas, while hanging out on a spiritual form.

I was also brought up old school too - so don’t worry if you aren’t interested, don’t come back until you are. This is not child’s play. And apparently the examples of the Masters who spent long years, realising the same inner Truths, is a foul thing to mention here for people who are so in love with their own ideals that nothing else will do. Strike of the serpent.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by janielee

Yes, and on forums you have people with rationality bent sermons on how spirituality is just sitting on a toilet and doing whatever one wants. Or how suspect spirituality is and how much they secretly hate it, and loathe its ideas, while hanging out on a spiritual form.

I was also brought up old school too - so don’t worry if you aren’t interested, don’t come back until you are. This is not child’s play. And apparently the examples of the Masters who spent long years, realising the same inner Truths, is a foul thing to mention here for people who are so in love with their own ideals that nothing else will do. Strike of the serpent.

Pretty much.

It all boils down to others expecting traditional institutions to change to accommodate them as individuals in accordance with their own secular beliefs and ideologies, vs changing themselves to be able to integrate their wayward ego into an existing paradigm.

What we see here (and everywhere) are mere subconscious projections.

People project their innermost state into observable, descriptive nuances and then attempt to dress it all up in an "appeal to logic" for the purposes of self-justification and I have wizened up to it.

For example, those who criticise, judge, condemn etc are usually and secretively very jealous or perceive the input as a direct threat (or else they just would not care). They are aware of their own limitations, negative experiences, regrets, bitterness, disappointments etc and then they will project all of that upon the person who mentions any of the great traditions and the Enlightened Masters thereof.

They may deny that this is their motive or agenda for disagreement, but they wouldn't necessarily be consciously aware of doing it either, because such things usually occur at a subconscious or an unconscious level and it takes a trained "third eye" to spot it.

When a person has these insecurities they feel the need to project onto others, the very first thing they will do is to find others (for reinforcement) who have had similar experiences, who all disagree with a certain institution, and then they form a focus group with a "network structure" hell bent on recruitment to bring the organization down...with more zeal than those religious zealots they so despise.

When one sees this, sees the bigger picture of how these people will also infiltrate the institution to attack it from the inside as well as the outside, ensuring destruction on all fronts, you will begin to understand what is going on here.

Eventually, it will force these religious/spiritual societies to go "underground" where they will become "secret societies"...condemned and shunned by everyone else due to the actions of a hundred or so loud-mouthed, influential and affluentual radical protestors and lobbyists with political affiliations.

It happened in Jesus' time...it happened with Nostradamus, with Leonardo Da Vinci, even with Nikola Tesla..

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by janielee

I like what you did there, did you notice? Very Trumpian - but more seriously the conversation was about the truth of teachings, not about personalities or upmanship or pride. Some people like to make it seem like that because that’s how they think “spirituality” works. YMMV,

I forgot I even made that comment.
I appreciate your kind words.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

What we see here (and everywhere) are mere projections. People project their inner state into observable, descriptive nuances and then attempt to dress it all up in "logic" for the purpose of self justification and I have wizened up to it.

YOU SUMMED IT UP PRETTY GOOD.

Originally Posted by davidsun

That statement does not 'reveal' anything about what you really mean to me - all that I get from it is that you wish to remain unknown, unknowable, 'hidden' (Goes back to my earlier 'hide and seek' gamer comments).

That's just from my point of view. From your point of view it may look and feel like you are really reaching out to let me know what's in your head and heart and thereby 'connect' with me.

Two ships passing - what I just can't relate to what you say - and frankly don't want to play what I see/experience as a 'catch me if you can' game.

Over and out. Blessings. My time and energy are valuable (to me at least). PM me if you wish to communicate, U2 are now on my ignore list.

Oh well, I did try. I have things inside of e that simply don't translate to words and this is one of them. You either understand it or you don't. It's not me that's playing hide and seek David, it's your capacity to understand.


Thanks for the campfire.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

People project their innermost state into observable, descriptive nuances and then attempt to dress it all up in an "appeal to logic" for the purposes of self-justification and I have wizened up to it.

"God made man, man made religion" and Spirituality, and this is the understanding that's been lost. When people suddenly become "Spiritual beings" you know they've lost the plot because already they've disconnected from themselves, already the rift has begun. The question often isn't why don't they like religion but what are they running away from? The understanding for me is not that I have certain beliefs but the reason I have them, I took Buddha's advice long ago and questioned.

I tried religion for a time but it simply didn't work for me. I'm not a ritual kinda guy but I understand how it could work for others. If people are happy with religion I'm happy with that, because as far as I'm concerned every road leads to Rome and what some find in religion I find in Life. Isn't Life itself as much an intuition as religion? If not then what are the reasons it's different - and therein you'll find so many answers. Spirituality is different from religion is different from 'real Life' is different from you because you're not religious and you don't name-drop the Ascended Masters.

If we're making differences between this and that we're not as Spiritual as we'd like to think we are, we're still very much driven by ego.

I came to Spirituality for the same reasons you came to religion and I found the answers I so badly needed. Religion didn't cut it for me because I didn't want ideologies and theologies, I needed to reconnect to the youngster who had been fractured by the trauma of abuse and people banging on about how wonderful God was didn't help.

As for what people do consciously or subconsciously, well that's into psychology territory and that has no relevance for the Spiritual Aspirant that psycho-analyses the reasons people aren't religious. And no, I'm not referring to you. But this is why things are in such a mess and they're not going to change any time soon.

And still people don't understand that all they have to express is the truth of themselves.

Spirituality is an entropic system, and sometimes trying to fight against the current only brings discord.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

"God made man, man made religion" and Spirituality, and this is the understanding that's been lost. When people suddenly become "Spiritual beings" you know they've lost the plot because already they've disconnected from themselves, already the rift has begun. The question often isn't why don't they like religion but what are they running away from? The understanding for me is not that I have certain beliefs but the reason I have them, I took Buddha's advice long ago and questioned.

I tried religion for a time but it simply didn't work for me. I'm not a ritual kinda guy but I understand how it could work for others. If people are happy with religion I'm happy with that, because as far as I'm concerned every road leads to Rome and what some find in religion I find in Life. Isn't Life itself as much an intuition as religion? If not then what are the reasons it's different - and therein you'll find so many answers. Spirituality is different from religion is different from 'real Life' is different from you because you're not religious and you don't name-drop the Ascended Masters.

If we're making differences between this and that we're not as Spiritual as we'd like to think we are, we're still very much driven by ego.

I came to Spirituality for the same reasons you came to religion and I found the answers I so badly needed. Religion didn't cut it for me because I didn't want ideologies and theologies, I needed to reconnect to the youngster who had been fractured by the trauma of abuse and people banging on about how wonderful God was didn't help.

As for what people do consciously or subconsciously, well that's into psychology territory and that has no relevance for the Spiritual Aspirant that psycho-analyses the reasons people aren't religious. And no, I'm not referring to you. But this is why things are in such a mess and they're not going to change any time soon.

And still people don't understand that all they have to express is the truth of themselves.

Spirituality is an entropic system, and sometimes trying to fight against the current only brings discord.

You just stated that you "came to Spirituality" and you also stated that Spirituality is "man made", so kindly educate me as to what it was that man made, or that you made which you eventually "came to" which was not already there in the first place and which you identified as being "Spirituality"? This confuses me.

We shall take it from there.

Yes, I prefer religion over Spirituality because as you said, it is more structured, more ritualistic and it has these things called "precepts" which can be slightly different and distinguishable from "concepts" but not by much.

Religion is more my thing because I can measure my progress against it and there is also something to aspire to if one cannot be in that permanent state of fully comprehending that which they already are.

Of course I would fail badly if I were discussing the Abrahamic Religions and not the Dharmic ones when I speak of "religion" - which man actually made to ascribe to Hinduism and Buddhism over THEIR descriptive pronoun.."way of life" or Lifestyle Choice.

[Jyotir]

Yes, concurring with those pretty accurate assessments (imo), and to add that institutions could be broadly construed to include discussion forums where potential discussion is duly constrained by the influx and persistence of rational skeptical detractors who, I agree and find this to be true, are simply projecting their own highly rationalized confusions, doubts, fears and ego-mind rejection of spiritual principles, in principle.

This is evident of the general process many undergo as part of an awakening process that may take place over years or even incarnations resulting in a unconsciously reactive confused and circular indeterminacy - their own as clearly demonstrated - but also in limiting discussion of a truly infra-spiritual nature in terms of expediency and facility of means. They rarely talk about legitimate spiritual topics, but rather a diffusion of their own miasma & it's always about an a-priori posture of non-un-anti spirituality that becomes the actual topic discussion. The consequence is that many who could participate are reluctant because of the adamant persistence and vehemence of such ego-mind resistance and so they simply lurk or recede.

It is nevertheless a good demonstration of a common internal battle that happens when many are awakened, even if it also represents the unfortunate deliberate (even if unconscious) delay of spiritual progress and often extended confusion and unhappiness - and why they want converts; misery loves company - of these self-styled skeptical 'philosophers' (and zealous polemicists) who fool many besides themselves!

Now territorially challenged, watch them get off their spiritual toilets!


~ J