Is anyone here familiar with the Baha'i Faith?

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Seeing is believing. Your skepticism unfortunately is indeed supported by the large numbers of problematic "gurus" out there. They seem to far outnumber the truly self-realized beings who are rarely in the public spotlight as they are relatively quiet with only a small number of real disciples.

I have been fortunate to have had the wherewithal to travel throughout the remote regions of the world where I have met some truly outstanding beings. Having said that, however, my two primary teachers were ones whom I actually met in my home city (NYC). I too have experienced many disappointments in some of those who presented as "gurus".

In any case, I am convinced that this manifestation is truly a "play of consciousness" in which anything is literally possible and I was not easily convinced.

There is a saying that I love to repeat: "When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is really ready, the teacher disappears."

Ditto.

The intellectual puts down his/her sword ..

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Your skepticism unfortunately is indeed supported by the large numbers of problematic "gurus" out there. They seem to far outnumber the truly self-realized beings who are rarely in the public spotlight as they are relatively quiet with only a small number of real disciples.

IMO the ''truly self-realized beings'' are only such due to the grace of their followers. It is the students and the disciples that make it possible. As you say ''when the student is ready the master appears''. Of course. We get mesmerized by words, teachings, stature, eye gazing, no blinking, etc. A ''master'' is a profession in and of itself. I think humans can have spiritual experience, but I do not believe they can be ''all-knowing'' or ''self-realized''. This means perfection, and IMO humans are not God.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

I didn't disappoint you, you caused it yourself for having expectations of me

I do know everything, everything I need to know for now and when the time is right the rest will be revealed


Now down to business....
When you had your NDE did you hear what was going on around you ?

Thanks for the advice. I no longer have any "expectations" of you.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Altair

IMO the ''truly self-realized beings'' are only such due to the grace of their followers. It is the students and the disciples that make it possible. As you say ''when the student is ready the master appears''. Of course. We get mesmerized by words, teachings, stature, eye gazing, no blinking, etc. A ''master'' is a profession in and of itself. I think humans can have spiritual experience, but I do not believe they can be ''all-knowing'' or ''self-realized''. This means perfection, and IMO humans are not God.

I once pondered whether my own teacher was "self-realized" or not and how to assess whether a teacher is self-realized or not.

I came to the conclusion that one could not really determine if a teacher was self-realized or not UNTIL one became self-realized themselves ... at which point it doesn't really matter.

I no longer even attempt to assess those who claim to be self-realized or not. I simply take what resonates and leave the rest while continuing to meditate and probe the depths.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I once pondered whether my own teacher was "self-realized" or not and how to assess whether a teacher is self-realized or not.

I came to the conclusion that one could not really determine if a teacher was self-realized or not UNTIL one became self-realized themselves ... at which point it doesn't really matter.

I no longer even attempt to assess those who claim to be self-realized or not. I simply take what resonates and leave the rest while continuing to meditate and probe the depths.

My one and only Teacher is definitely ' Self Realized ' and I love Him....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=L_jXmKszEdk

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Thanks for the advice. I no longer have any "expectations" of you.

I'm telling you for your own good. You'll never ever be disappointed if you follow my advice

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I once pondered whether my own teacher was "self-realized" or not and how to assess whether a teacher is self-realized or not.

I came to the conclusion that one could not really determine if a teacher was self-realized or not UNTIL one became self-realized themselves ... at which point it doesn't really matter.

I no longer even attempt to assess those who claim to be self-realized or not. I simply take what resonates and leave the rest while continuing to meditate and probe the depths.

Exactly......don’t shoot the messenger....I just cannot understand this demand or expectation for perfection. Do any of us believe we are perfect in our understanding of others ?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I once pondered whether my own teacher was "self-realized" or not and how to assess whether a teacher is self-realized or not.

I came to the conclusion that one could not really determine if a teacher was self-realized or not UNTIL one became self-realized themselves ... at which point it doesn't really matter.

I no longer even attempt to assess those who claim to be self-realized or not. I simply take what resonates and leave the rest while continuing to meditate and probe the depths.

Real good points.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I came to the conclusion that one could not really determine if a teacher was self-realized or not UNTIL one became self-realized themselves ... at which point it doesn't really matter.

I suppose much of this depends on how one defines ''self-realization''. To my understanding it is supposed to be an 'end stage' where all 'negative' characteristics have disappeared and will not return. It is also said to be a state of omniscience and omnipotence. You can already guess that I do not believe in any of this because I do not believe the human being is or will become God ((spiritually)) nor do I believe it makes any sense ((rationally)) and it would be rather easy to put such claims to the test, and over time I have learned that many supposed enlightened masters had demonstratably false beliefs about the universe, nature, the human body, made false predictions, and so forth.

If however you take a more watered down approach of it being an experience where everything clicks and feels amazing, a eureka moment filled with joy and bliss, than sure. This is also not alien to scientific research. Neuroscientists study such states of being.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Exactly......don’t shoot the messenger....I just cannot understand this demand or expectation for perfection. Do any of us believe we are perfect in our understanding of others ?

No, we don't have perfect understanding nor do all those bearded men who sit cross legged and give you a mantra. Humans are fallible.