Can one think themselves to death?

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by ketzer

If I see through this illusion of life, and this illusion of me, is that seeing reality, or just a kind of death? And if so, is it a good thing, a bad thing, or maybe just yet one more thing?

I have to say, I have been aware that I have a thinking problem for some time now. I think I think too much sometimes, right now I suppose being one of them. I like to think about the underlying nature of reality. I like to dive as deep as my limited breadth allows into physics and see what insights and clues may be there. I like to dive into the psychology of my own mind and examine what I find there, often finding there is no solid I to speak of.

For a time, I was obsessed with answering the question, “What is real?” or “I am...what?”. I have discovered many things, found them to not be real from the perspective of what lies beneath them, but I don’t think I have come any closer to answering those questions, and indeed seem further away than ever. Unless of course, I just throw up my hands and say, “Everything is real?”, the answer is, “Yes”. IDK if that is legit or not, but it does feel damn good anyway.

In my wanderings, it occurred to me that if I can explain away reality as illusion, and explain away myself as an illusion of mind, and find myself with nothing left, what will I do then…? I mean technically I won’t even be there...no space, no time, no matter, no me. Is this nothingness not the goal many profess to be seeking?

So far, no matter how far I find myself wandering, I always come back to find a me made of matter occupying space in the present moment. Perhaps it is at the end of the day and I have just enjoyed a half a pint of this or that, or maybe it is getting late and I am just tired of thinking, or perhaps I just get caught up in all that illusion surrounding me in that moment. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Have I failed to achieve enlightenment? Is the attainment of nothingness the same as the attainment of enlightenment, or is it just the attainment of darkness?

IDK, but the older I get, perhaps because I have that much less life to have to face, the less I find myself preoccupied with seeing through this illusion of life, and the more content I seem to be to let it run its course. Even though, or maybe even because, I know it is a 100% fatal condition. Maybe I am just getting older and more tired, but I must say, I find the restfulness of it very satisfying. It feels like turning around and drifting with the current instead of swimming hard to get upstream. Do you suppose, at least for some, that this what death feels like?

Waking up to death is waking up to life.
Realising what’s real and not real lends you to get more real.
If you try to explain things through mind alone you won’t experience deeper what the enquiry means as yourself through all of you. So things like ‘nothingness’ cannot be understood beyond ‘nothing’ because it can’t think itself into being beyond that point. The capacity of you as a mind/body as nothingness is resurrecting into wholeness as an open, clear vessel.
And it’s through your vehicle/body you experience the unfolding as ‘everything’ you are true, whole and complete, then you worry less, flow more, trust more, live more true to your life experience in gratitude and realize the potential in this way of being you.

As for enlightenment. When there is nothing missing inside you, your not seeking anything, but aware of yourself within the natural rhythms of life, as yourself. Your aware of yourself as life. Your aware of yourself as a creator of your life.You can be what you want to be.

Thinking yourself to death is really an opportunity without leaving your body to surrender to life. You can activate death in this body to rebirth yourself beyond everything past into a new blank canvas.

Originally Posted by ketzer

It seems to me that getting away from ourselves is often cited by some as the goal of their spirituality. Only I wonder if what they may end up doing, if such a thing is possible at all, might be called life bypassing.

I think what led me to start this thread was this issue of qualia. It is often the uncertainty or confusion in life that leads many to seek out a spiritual path. They may be looking for a way out, or at least to gain an understanding of 'why' to help them cope. It is those difficult qualities of the life experience that often lead to different aspects of suffering that they are seeking to mitigate. The monk in the monastery may find that he can avoid much of the fear and anxieties that the peasant has to deal with when trying to keep himself and his family alive. He may find that without all those worldly attachments he can tame his mind, maybe even attain enlightenment. The monk has changed the qualities of his life experience, but what I don’t know is whether he has made a good bargain or not, or if any set of qualia can be said to be better or worse than another. Perhaps the answer is different for each soul for each life.

Concerning qualia basic mindfulness meditation can present one with a richer experience of life. Less reactivity and less likely to take things personally even without understand the "why" of it all. Think "The Second Arrow" parable. It's not only the nature of the experience that colors qualia but also the nature of the experiencer, so the person running away from one set of life experiences in pursuit of another is doing neither because wherever you go, there you are. I don't see any of this as an attempt at getting away from one's self. On the contrary I see it as an attempt at getting closer. Of course the question is closer to what?

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by ketzer

It seems to me that getting away from ourselves is often cited by some as the goal of their spirituality. Only I wonder if what they may end up doing, if such a thing is possible at all, might be called life bypassing.

I think what led me to start this thread was this issue of qualia. It is often the uncertainty or confusion in life that leads many to seek out a spiritual path. They may be looking for a way out, or at least to gain an understanding of 'why' to help them cope. It is those difficult qualities of the life experience that often lead to different aspects of suffering that they are seeking to mitigate. The monk in the monastery may find that he can avoid much of the fear and anxieties that the peasant has to deal with when trying to keep himself and his family alive. He may find that without all those worldly attachments he can tame his mind, maybe even attain enlightenment. The monk has changed the qualities of his life experience, but what I don’t know is whether he has made a good bargain or not, or if any set of qualia can be said to be better or worse than another. Perhaps the answer is different for each soul for each life.

"getting away from ourselves is often cited by some as the goal of their spirituality" --- I believe that is mistaken goal.

How do you fit "qualia" --- in the rest of the paragraph? I'm not familiar with the word, and from what I looked up I didn't understand what you meant.

In philosophy and certain models of psychology, qualia (/ˈkwɑːliə/ or /ˈkweɪliə/; singular form: quale) are defined as individual instances of subjective, conscious experience. The term qualia derives from the Latin neuter plural form (qualia) of the Latin adjective quālis (Latin pronunciation: [ˈkʷaːlɪs]) meaning "of what sort" or "of what kind" in a specific instance, such as "what it is like to taste a specific apple, this particular apple now".

Examples of "qualia" include the perceived sensation of pain of a headache, the taste of wine, as well as the redness of an evening sky. As qualitative characters of sensation, qualia stand in contrast to "propositional attitudes",[1] where the focus is on beliefs about experience rather than what it is directly like to be experiencing.

That kind of "enlightenment" --- is man-made, so it is a distorted goal.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Waking up to death is waking up to life.
Realising what’s real and not real lends you to get more real.
If you try to explain things through mind alone you won’t experience deeper what the enquiry means as yourself through all of you. So things like ‘nothingness’ cannot be understood beyond ‘nothing’ because it can’t think itself into being beyond that point. The capacity of you as a mind/body as nothingness is resurrecting into wholeness as an open, clear vessel.
And it’s through your vehicle/body you experience the unfolding as ‘everything’ you are true, whole and complete, then you worry less, flow more, trust more, live more true to your life experience in gratitude and realize the potential in this way of being you.

As for enlightenment. When there is nothing missing inside you, your not seeking anything, but aware of yourself within the natural rhythms of life, as yourself. Your aware of yourself as life. Your aware of yourself as a creator of your life.You can be what you want to be.

Thinking yourself to death is really an opportunity without leaving your body to surrender to life. You can activate death in this body to rebirth yourself beyond everything past into a new blank canvas.

No offense intended: you used here quite a number of clichés ... I stopped highlighting after the first two.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by inavalan

No offense intended: you used here quite a number of clichés ... I stopped highlighting after the first two.

No offence taken.

Do you have a problem with it to highlight it?

Or maybe you could expand on why it’s as you see it and what that means to you in relation to this thread and my sharing.

That’s if you can step out of your normal way of relating.

Originally Posted by inavalan

"getting away from ourselves is often cited by some as the goal of their spirituality" --- I believe that is mistaken goal.

How do you fit "qualia" --- in the rest of the paragraph? I'm not familiar with the word, and from what I looked up I didn't understand what you meant.

That kind of "enlightenment" --- is man-made, so it is a distorted goal.

We might speak of the redness of the evening sky, or the taste of an apple, but the experience of life has a wide variety of different qualia associated with the experiences that constitute it. Many of those qualia are difficult and unpleasant as well. What if feels like to experience the death of a loved one, what deep loneliness feels like, these are qualia as well. Some turn to spirituality looking for a means to filter out the "bad" qualia from life and retain only the "good" or pleasant ones. Some teachings will say one cannot have the yin without the yang and so preach the way is to stay in the middle and have no attachment to any of those life qualia. To be the sage sitting on the lotus pad oblivious to the weather, whether pleasant or stormy. If one is unmoved by grief, or does not know how the feeling of deep loneliness can hollow one out, then it seems to me they are not truly experiencing the true qualia of those experiences. The qualia are not in the death or lack of companionship, they are created by the individual within in response. If experiencing these qualia is an integral part of the life experience, then is that sage still alive, or just present?

.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Concerning qualia basic mindfulness meditation can present one with a richer experience of life. Less reactivity and less likely to take things personally even without understand the "why" of it all. Think "The Second Arrow" parable. It's not only the nature of the experience that colors qualia but also the nature of the experiencer, so the person running away from one set of life experiences in pursuit of another is doing neither because wherever you go, there you are. I don't see any of this as an attempt at getting away from one's self. On the contrary I see it as an attempt at getting closer. Of course the question is closer to what?

I read that book, Jon Kabat-Zinn. It's a good book. That is also one of my favorite sayings. I am a believer in using mindfulness to draw out and experience the qualia in experiences that would otherwise go unnoticed (or perhaps...uncreated??). I have to admit though that seeing there is now a mindfulness magazine somehow seems wrong to me. Pretty soon they will be offering mindfulness meditation classes that involve goats crawling on you. Although I suppose that would have a rather funky qualia if one could get past the pop culture phase qualia of it.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by JustBe

No offence taken.

Do you have a problem with it to highlight it?

Or maybe you could expand on why it’s as you see it and what that means to you in relation to this thread and my sharing.

That’s if you can step out of your normal way of relating.

Ouch! .

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by ketzer

We might speak of the redness of the evening sky, or the taste of an apple, but the experience of life has a wide variety of different qualia associated with the experiences that constitute it. Many of those qualia are difficult and unpleasant as well. What if feels like to experience the death of a loved one, what deep loneliness feels like, these are qualia as well. Some turn to spirituality looking for a means to filter out the "bad" qualia from life and retain only the "good" or pleasant ones. Some teachings will say one cannot have the yin without the yang and so preach the way is to stay in the middle and have no attachment to any of those life qualia. To be the sage sitting on the lotus pad oblivious to the weather, whether pleasant or stormy. If one is unmoved by grief, or does not know how the feeling of deep loneliness can hollow one out, then it seems to me they are not truly experiencing the true qualia of those experiences. The qualia are not in the death or lack of companionship, they are created by the individual within in response. If experiencing these qualia is an integral part of the life experience, then is that sage still alive, or just present?

.

I don't understand where you're going with this.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Ouch! .

Just feel it, you’ll be fine.