The Battle of Duality

Originally Posted by Rah nam

Are you sure?

By all means measure it.

Originally Posted by Rah nam

I talked to Shenara this morning about the expansion of consciousness, and what is consciousness.

In regards to expansion, she simply said, if you expand you knowledge about something, does your head get bigger?
I said, someone's head might swell a little bit.

And someone's head can swell if they think their consciousness has expanded. Everything in my consciousness has 'always been there' and there's no concept of what might have been in it previously, there is no 'previous'. There's no way to compare between what's in it now and what was in it last week, although in my mind I know I've become conscious of other things. I'm not offering that up as a truth, it's just the way I experience it. That's the way our heads work and the reason why our beliefs are so strong sometimes, even something we've just become conscious of can seem as though it's always been there.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Consciousness just Is. It neither expands nor contracts. What does change is mind and its realization of consciousness. That is the stiller one's mind the more consciousness "feels" like it expands when in reality the only expansion is our realization of what is, was and always will be, unchanging, infinite and absolute - Consciousness.

Consciousness is like an 'eye' - some people 'romanticize' and go gaga over it, believing it to be THE Cat's Meeow! But its just a ubiquitous (nothing 'special' about it, IMO) 'faculty' or 'tool' that is accessible by and at all 'nodes' of Life. What really matters (IMO) is the degree of the Intelligence of the Being (node?) that uses/wields 'consciousness'. Though stupidity abounds, many Beings (not just 'humans') are amazingly/impressively Intelligent!

Originally Posted by davidsun

Consciousness is like an 'eye' - some people 'romanticize' and go gaga over it, believing it to be THE Cat's Meeow! But its just a ubiquitous (nothing 'special' about it, IMO) 'faculty' or 'tool' that is accessible by and at all 'nodes' of Life. What really matters (IMO) is the degree of the Intelligence of the Being (node?) that uses/wields 'consciousness'. Though stupidity abounds, many Beings (not just 'humans') are amazingly/impressively Intelligent!

And without consciousness it's all a bunch of neurons, synaptic connections and electrochemical firings across networks and minus experience. In other words nothing more than a zombie, philosophically speaking. Or a sophisticated computer, if you will, devoid of meaning.

The same One consciousness illuminates all minds, regardless how well (or not so well!) they might be developed, and not only human minds.

Your position is consciousness is just a tool in the mind's toolkit. My position is mind is but a tool of Consciousness to explore Itself via the multiplicity.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Consciousness just Is. It neither expands nor contracts. What does change is mind and its realization of consciousness. That is the stiller one's mind the more consciousness "feels" like it expands when in reality the only expansion is our realization of what is, was and always will be, unchanging, infinite and absolute - Consciousness.

This is open to question, and depends on what we mean by consciousness.

What some people call unchanging, infinite and absolute Consciousness, other people would call Being. And that Being individualises as consciousness, a point of separate awareness, the Observer. The sense of expansion or contraction depends on what consciousness identifies with.

And does the mind really realise consciousness? Or is it that when the mind becomes still then it creates a space for consciousness to enter the mental body. The mind is just a tool, and it is in the absence of mind that consciousness is realised on a mental level.

"the only expansion is our realization of what is, was and always will be, unchanging, infinite and absolute - Consciousness." This gives rise to the question, what is it which is doing the realising?

We are dealing with subtle differences in our understandings and definitions, but these subtle differences may distort communication.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

This is open to question, and depends on what we mean by consciousness.

What some people call unchanging, infinite and absolute Consciousness, other people would call Being. And that Being individualises as consciousness, a point of separate awareness, the Observer. The sense of expansion or contraction depends on what consciousness identifies with.

And does the mind really realise consciousness? Or is it that when the mind becomes still then it creates a space for consciousness to enter the mental body. The mind is just a tool, and it is in the absence of mind that consciousness is realised on a mental level.

"the only expansion is our realization of what is, was and always will be, unchanging, infinite and absolute - Consciousness." This gives rise to the question, what is it which is doing the realising?

We are dealing with subtle differences in our understandings and definitions, but these subtle differences may distort communication.

Peace

Sat Chit Ananda. Existence Consciousness Bliss. It doesn't need to enter anywhere or into anything because it already is everywhere and everything.

Body, mind and any other object is but name and form of Sat Chit Ananda. The Chit illumines all forms and names (thoughts are also form and name) and through Its illumination the mind perceives and experiences. So mind doesn't posses inherent consciousness but is illumined by the One consciousness. It's just a reflection or manifestation and it's always there but not recognized for what It actually is.

Eye of the eye. Mind of the mind.

Anyway this is the non-dual view, at least of Advaita and that's one of the oldest non-dual spiritual traditions dating back over 1,400 years and in truth its teaching go even further back to the Upanishads dating back another 1,400 years.

If everyone defines it as they see fit it's kind of pointless, confusing and doesn't facilitate understanding by others. This is why I recommend studying the teachings of either one of the great non-dual traditions, Advaita or Buddhism. At least then it's internally consistent and in truth there's really not a whole lot of difference between the two as far as I can tell, though my knowledge of Buddhism is much more shallow .

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Your position is consciousness is just a tool in the mind's toolkit. My position is mind is but a tool of Consciousness to explore Itself via the multiplicity.

That's an accurate statement, I think. But your 'analysis' just doesn't 'cut the mustard' with me. I would instead say that, without the Intelligent application of mind by way of making deeply thoughtful comparisons, rigorous logical analyses, etc., one might as well be a 'donkey' trying to "explore Itself" (via whatever).

For instance, there are a lot of people here who think their 'conscious' realizations are THE Cat's Meeow just because they have meditated to the point where they have stopped all (conscious ) 'thought' and, being delighted to discover that such a thought-stopping phenomenon relieves them pf any feeling of stress and/or conflict, as well as 'ignoring' what psychologists have discovered and shared about the phenomenal[!] nature of unconscious processes, then think that they must have just 'mystically' registered 'absolutely' real truth.

Even if you continue to disagree with me on the above score, which I fully expect that you will, I hope that you at least appreciate the LOGIC which has led me to above 'explanation' to and for myself. (Please note: I often 'meditated' in the above fashion for fairly long periods of time in the past, and sometimes, though less often and much more briefly these days, do so now.)

Thank you for opportunity for me to 'volley' across the internet with you on this score, JASG.

P.S. This link is to a post I addressed to you in the past. I include here for any other reader who might be interested in reading a more comprehesive statement pertaining to how I see/think 'mind' and 'Intelligence' are connected: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...postcount=1185

Originally Posted by davidsun

That's an accurate statement, I think. But your 'analysis' just doesn't 'cut the mustard' with me. I would instead say that, without the Intelligent application of mind by way of making deeply thoughtful comparisons, rigorous logical analyses, etc., one might as well be a 'donkey' trying to "explore Itself" (via whatever).

For instance, there are a lot of people here who think their 'conscious' realizations are THE Cat's Meeow just because they have meditated to the point where they have stopped all (conscious ) 'thought' and, being delighted to discover that such a thought-stopping phenomenon relieves them pf any feeling of stress and/or conflict, as well as 'ignoring' what psychologists have discovered and shared about the phenomenal[!] nature of unconscious processes, then think that they must have just 'mystically' registered 'absolutely' real truth.

Even if you continue to disagree with me on the above score, which I fully expect that you will, I hope that you at least appreciate the LOGIC which has led me to above 'explanation' to and for myself. (Please note: I often 'meditated' in the above fashion for fairly long periods of time in the past, and sometimes, though less often and much more briefly these days, do so now.)

Thank you for opportunity for me to 'volley' across the internet with you on this score, JASG.

I don't even disagree with you. The deepest state of Samadhi, at least as I understand it, is akin to deep sleep. I've never been that deep in meditation, just sleep. LOL!

So even when I don't easily sense body and mind seems absolutely still, some aspect of mind-body is still engaged and obviously so. To tell you the truth I'm not even convinced of the necessity of achieving that ultimate state of Samadhi.

I also don't dismiss or diminish mind-body as that is the vehicle of experience and without that it seems to me Existence Consciousness Bliss would be greatly overrated. The very fact there is a physical reality seems to me a testament to this obvious truth.

For the sake of continuity I'm quoting your other post here.

Originally Posted by davidsun

There is (atmic!) 'spirit' 'inside' every 'body' of matter/ Your denial of this fact (IMO it is fact) makes you a heretic, IMO.

I pray that you/your soul awakens to the significance this truth someday, JASG

From my book: "The potentially liberating and amendatory truth is that everybody in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of ‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by cus*tom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by mis*usage, I generally refer to it alter*natively, as 'Intelligence', 'Creativity', 'Life Itself' or 'the Life-Force'. However labeled, it is the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within each and everyone."

I'm simply saying that atmic spirit is consciousness and that it can be directly experienced. That it's closer than anything if recognized (realized) yet farther than anything because non-recognition is the normal state due to a host of factors of the human condition. To me it's ultimately tangible in the realist sense, whereas spirit is more an abstract concept (for me).

I think it's probable we're talking about the very same thing only using different words.

Originally Posted by davidsun

Thank you for opportunity for me to 'volley' across the internet with you on this score, JASG.

I'm really quite sociable. I love a good and even lively discussion regardless of agreement or disagreement. In the case of the latter I don't take offence and as a matter of fact it is an opportunity for examination and contemplation of my position.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

That's the standard non-dual view on consciousness. That is it's Infinite without beginning or end. If it's infinite there's no space or time to expand into. It's always everywhere regardless of time, space and causation.

Consciousness is the formless and all the things we experience, including ourselves, are but names and forms that appear (for a time) in consciousness.

to this. I also think that what anyone is conscious; of at any given moment is neceesarily, for quite practical reasons, only a vey small 'fraction' of the 'Infinity' we are each/all ensconced within.

Regarding what I call soul-development, in my view this goes 'hand in hand' (or is it heart on mind-'foot' ) with what I call "'i'dentity-expansion". To wit (from my writing):

To the degree that, as a result of continuing to mentally and emotionally process our personal experiences, we become aware of ( i.e. consciously ‘awaken’ to) the fact that all our lives are (in other words, all Life is) basically coextant, the ‘sense’ we have of our own ‘i’dentity expands to become other-inclusive. And, as we then realize that just focusing on things by and for the benefit of our ‘own’ selves simply results in our (delusionally!) living in personally ‘i’solating thought-and-feeling ‘bubbles’, we may (logically then) choose to transcend (i.e., rise ‘above’ and evolve ‘beyond’) the limitations of whatever selfish perceptions and tendencies at that point, as a result of past personal and social conditioning, continue to ‘govern’ and (so, in effect) ‘imprison’ us, and therefore more and more ‘freely’ grow (expand) to become more and more loving and enjoying of our ‘neighbors’ as our ‘selves’ (as advocated in Mark 12:31) in ever-widening, more and more Life‑embracing circles, and therefore and thereby (in due course) fully execute our innate Source-code ‘program’ to maximally experience and express Love and Joy in relationship to and with others. This, instead of just partially doing so by way of continuing to operate as the same ‘old’ ego‑‘i’dentity configurations focused on reaping and dispensing whatever Love and Joy ‘perks’ we (as a result of prior personal conditioning) happen to at any given point especially value in relation to particular others, for however long we may continue to live (as such☺*that is!).

My 'quibble' with the whole Duality-vs-Nonduality 'debate' is that it itotally (sleight-of-'mind'!) finesses the Individuality-vs-Multiplicity 'elephant in the room'!