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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #21  
Old 20-06-2020, 12:44 AM
Kioma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Oh my gosh! I just came across this analogy in a Dennis Waite blog!

http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses...ness_waite.htm

The ‘bottom line’ is that nothing matters. There is only the non-dual reality, the Self. The rest is only a wonderful, ever-changing manifestation – merely name and form of that same, unchanging, unmanifest reality; ever whole, ever complete, never two. This is the case regardless of whether or not the apparent person ‘realizes’ this truth. But it is also part of this marvelous, apparent creation that, occasionally, one of these ‘persons’ wonders about the nature of this reality and looks for understanding and self-knowledge. Traditional advaita provides a structured, reasonable and assured approach to gain this understanding, entirely within the context of this seeming manifestation.

One might argue that, whether or not this apparent person gains self-knowledge makes not the slightest difference to the reality – and one would have to concede that this is necessarily the case. Nevertheless, at the level of the seeming world of duality, it seems to make the most enormous difference to the ‘person’. It is the difference between the dreamer trapped in a nightmare that he erroneously believes to be true and the lucid dreamer who recognizes the dream for what it is and enjoys every minute.


Exactly!
Well, that's one perspective.

Another one is this. God is omniscient. That means all-knowing. Do you think then God just forgets?

As I explained it DOES matter. God KNOWS.

Just what the implications of this might be we can discuss - but things DO matter, that much is as clear as the sun in the sky.
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  #22  
Old 20-06-2020, 12:52 AM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioma
Well, that's one perspective.

Another one is this. God is omniscient. That means all-knowing. Do you think then God just forgets?

As I explained it DOES matter. God KNOWS.

Just what the implications of this might be we can discuss - but things DO matter, that much is as clear as the sun in the sky.

That's just the last part of the blog. It's a critique of Tony Parson's "Open Secret" which takes the absolutist position in that quote, however Dennis Waite acknowledges the apparent duality and the way beyond it is through it.

I just thought it interesting he used the lucid dream analogy for realization.
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  #23  
Old 20-06-2020, 06:58 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
At some point the rain stops, be it when the Sun expands into its red giant phase, stripping away Earth's atmosphere and boiling its seas or when the universe ends in either a Big Chill or Big Crunch.

Not even the universe lasts forever. It had a beginning and will have an end so it too is not permanent. However there is a substrate it arises from/appear within that is permanent, existence itself. In the language of Advaita one has inherent existence and the other does not, having only borrowed existence.

As said before about the personal aspects of what you are, you cannot separate what you are that is impersonal from what you are that isn't . There is only what you are .

When we speak about the impermanence and the permanence the same applies .

You cannot separate what you are that is impermanent as an expressional experience as rain from what you are that isn’t .

To say the rain is unreal is to separate the rain from what is real that isn’t rain .

The understanding of oneness should rectify and shed light upon the dividing nature that is presented .

There can only be real or unreal you can’t have both as a foundation, this is why the dream analogy never works as said before, you can’t have a real fish in an unreal pond and here we have a similar scenario .


x daz x
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  #24  
Old 20-06-2020, 10:02 AM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
As said before about the personal aspects of what you are, you cannot separate what you are that is impersonal from what you are that isn't . There is only what you are .

When we speak about the impermanence and the permanence the same applies .

You cannot separate what you are that is impermanent as an expressional experience as rain from what you are that isn’t .

To say the rain is unreal is to separate the rain from what is real that isn’t rain .

The understanding of oneness should rectify and shed light upon the dividing nature that is presented .

There can only be real or unreal you can’t have both as a foundation, this is why the dream analogy never works as said before, you can’t have a real fish in an unreal pond and here we have a similar scenario .


x daz x

Yes, that's all well and good but as a method of teaching and understanding it's as worthless as the diametrically opposite approach of Neo-Advaita. Both are absolute positions (nothing is real and everything is real) and are of no use whatsoever in helping a seeker to grasp what non-duality actually means. In other words it's not a gradual explanatory method, instead just a dogma. Believe this! Why? Because it's truth.

That's why there's a tradition developed over 3,000 years using the techniques of traditional Advaita that gradually brings a seeker to realization.

Both absolutist approaches are more likely than not to be appropriated by ego which is the exact opposite of what's desired.
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  #25  
Old 20-06-2020, 10:26 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Yes, that's all well and good but as a method of teaching and understanding it's as worthless as the diametrically opposite approach of Neo-Advaita. Both are absolute positions (nothing is real and everything is real) and are of no use whatsoever in helping a seeker to grasp what non-duality actually means. In other words it's not a gradual explanatory method, instead just a dogma. Believe this! Why? Because it's truth.



That's why there's a tradition developed over 3,000 years using the techniques of traditional Advaita that gradually brings a seeker to realization.

Both absolutist approaches are more likely than not to be appropriated by ego which is the exact opposite of what's desired.

Correct Neo Advaita is not a teaching, it either resonates or it doesnt depending on the character of the seeker. Its the same with the traditional approach so there is room for both once tradition stops fighting its turf war:)
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  #26  
Old 20-06-2020, 12:20 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Yes, that's all well and good but as a method of teaching and understanding it's as worthless as the diametrically opposite approach of Neo-Advaita. Both are absolute positions (nothing is real and everything is real) and are of no use whatsoever in helping a seeker to grasp what non-duality actually means. In other words it's not a gradual explanatory method, instead just a dogma. Believe this! Why? Because it's truth.

That's why there's a tradition developed over 3,000 years using the techniques of traditional Advaita that gradually brings a seeker to realization.

Both absolutist approaches are more likely than not to be appropriated by ego which is the exact opposite of what's desired.

On the other hand likened to the practice of neti neti there is the teachings associated with ‘not this’ in relation to what you are . So from what starting point does one embrace and realise the truth? While saying not this all day long to everything perceived .

Why not start out with the teaching practice of ‘all this’ is what I AM .

Why start off with a false premise at all .

Makes no sense to talk about or teach and preach that impermanence is unreal and what is permanent is real when there is only Self or what you are present in both instances .

All this separating and dividing is not a true reflection . For myself if I was a seeker and a novice I would rather know that everything is what you are rather than spend a lifetime saying I AM not this, this is not real, this is impermanent etc etc .

Each to their own in regards to their journey, but all I am doing is pointing what isn’t right about the premise .

You recognised eventually that the illusory world isn’t illusory if you perceive the world in a specific way, it’s no different here ..

I don’t understand why anyone would study the teachings of the world is illusory when it isn’t .

It’s a false belief to the one that is ignorant, these teachings however old and spiritual would be no different to any teachings that peeps follow religiously .


x daz x
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  #27  
Old 20-06-2020, 01:21 PM
Kioma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
...It’s a false belief to the one that is ignorant, these teachings however old and spiritual would be no different to any teachings that peeps follow religiously .
In other words - dogma.

Thus, my signature.
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  #28  
Old 24-06-2020, 08:01 PM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
On the other hand likened to the practice of neti neti there is the teachings associated with ‘not this’ in relation to what you are . So from what starting point does one embrace and realise the truth? While saying not this all day long to everything perceived .

Why not start out with the teaching practice of ‘all this’ is what I AM .

Why start off with a false premise at all .

Makes no sense to talk about or teach and preach that impermanence is unreal and what is permanent is real when there is only Self or what you are present in both instances .

All this separating and dividing is not a true reflection . For myself if I was a seeker and a novice I would rather know that everything is what you are rather than spend a lifetime saying I AM not this, this is not real, this is impermanent etc etc .

Each to their own in regards to their journey, but all I am doing is pointing what isn’t right about the premise .

You recognised eventually that the illusory world isn’t illusory if you perceive the world in a specific way, it’s no different here ..

I don’t understand why anyone would study the teachings of the world is illusory when it isn’t .

It’s a false belief to the one that is ignorant, these teachings however old and spiritual would be no different to any teachings that peeps follow religiously .


x daz x
Hey Daz,

Neti Neti is not at all at fault here. Neti neti will not be a false premise/practice, if people practiced neti neti, the way neti neti was meant to be practiced.

Neti neti does not negate the physical universe/ turn the physical universe into an illusion/not real. People's practice of neti neti with their dogma and false beliefs of existence negates and escape the existence of the physical universe. This is why some spiritual teachers (like J. Krishnamurti ) reject old practices, traditions and etc- because a foundation or path that is based on dogma and false beliefs, even while using a good practice (this includes all the paths of yoga) will obviously, lead one away from truth.

Neti neti is a practice of moving past man made objects (but people take the word objects and the context a little too far to mean all objects in the physical universe, including the objects/matter of the physical universe itself) and that man made objects are not the truth to base your foundation on.

Neti neti is also used to go deeper into the ego/I/thinker thinking “I am just my name,” “I am just my body,” or “I am just my personality,” and etc and realize internally that my ego/I/thinker that thinks "I am this" and "I am that" is the one and the same as my true inner self, which is the the deep heart felt feeling of I AM/atman. The point is to unite the separate ego/I/thinker with the true inner self/atman. The point is not to create more separation and division.
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  #29  
Old 24-06-2020, 10:38 PM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
Hey Daz,

Neti Neti is not at all at fault here. Neti neti will not be a false premise/practice, if people practiced neti neti, the way neti neti was meant to be practiced.

Neti neti does not negate the physical universe/ turn the physical universe into an illusion/not real. People's practice of neti neti with their dogma and false beliefs of existence negates and escape the existence of the physical universe. This is why some spiritual teachers (like J. Krishnamurti ) reject old practices, traditions and etc- because a foundation or path that is based on dogma and false beliefs, even while using a good practice (this includes all the paths of yoga) will obviously, lead one away from truth.

Neti neti is a practice of moving past man made objects (but people take the word objects and the context a little too far to mean all objects in the physical universe, including the objects/matter of the physical universe itself) and that man made objects are not the truth to base your foundation on.

Neti neti is also used to go deeper into the ego/I/thinker thinking “I am just my name,” “I am just my body,” or “I am just my personality,” and etc and realize internally that my ego/I/thinker that thinks "I am this" and "I am that" is the one and the same as my true inner self, which is the the deep heart felt feeling of I AM/atman. The point is to unite the separate ego/I/thinker with the true inner self/atman. The point is not to create more separation and division.

Not quite...

https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/5325/neti-neti

Neti-neti meditation helps to identify all things of the world which are not the atman (the real), thus negating the anatman (the unreal).

https://advaitamandscience.org/2013/...anatma-viveka/

Anatman is an-atman that is ‘all that is not the Self’. Anatman is inert. It becomes active and knowledgeable by its close proximity with the Atman, which is of the nature of pure infinite consciousness. The three bodies or the five kosas constitute the anatman. The three bodies in an individual are the gross body (sthula sarira), the subtle body (suksma sarira), and the causal body (karana sarira).

All the above described bodies and kosas are inert and they together constitute the anatman. Anatman is inert because it is formed from the subtle concepts (tanmatras) of the inert panca–bhutas (the basic five elements). However, from our experience we infer that anatman is active and knowledgeable. It is very hard to believe that the mind, intellect, prana, and body are inert. Vedanta gives explanation for this as, the anatman is inert, but due to the proximity of the Atman with the anatman, the anatman appears as active and knowledgeable. Atman is of the nature of pure consciousness.





Body and mind are Anatman, and that includes ego/I/thinker. It's all inert matter illumined by One Consciousness, giving the appearance of individual consciousness and individual self. That is the illusion and Neti-Neti is but one practice of many to assist in overcoming that illusion.
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  #30  
Old 25-06-2020, 04:15 AM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Not quite...

https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/5325/neti-neti

Neti-neti meditation helps to identify all things of the world which are not the atman (the real), thus negating the anatman (the unreal).

https://advaitamandscience.org/2013/...anatma-viveka/

Anatman is an-atman that is ‘all that is not the Self’. Anatman is inert. It becomes active and knowledgeable by its close proximity with the Atman, which is of the nature of pure infinite consciousness. The three bodies or the five kosas constitute the anatman. The three bodies in an individual are the gross body (sthula sarira), the subtle body (suksma sarira), and the causal body (karana sarira).

All the above described bodies and kosas are inert and they together constitute the anatman. Anatman is inert because it is formed from the subtle concepts (tanmatras) of the inert panca–bhutas (the basic five elements). However, from our experience we infer that anatman is active and knowledgeable. It is very hard to believe that the mind, intellect, prana, and body are inert. Vedanta gives explanation for this as, the anatman is inert, but due to the proximity of the Atman with the anatman, the anatman appears as active and knowledgeable. Atman is of the nature of pure consciousness.


Body and mind are Anatman, and that includes ego/I/thinker. It's all inert matter illumined by One Consciousness, giving the appearance of individual consciousness and individual self. That is the illusion and Neti-Neti is but one practice of many to assist in overcoming that illusion.
Yes, the unreal/untrue dogma and false beliefs as I stated. Those are the only things that are unreal/untrue/an illusion.
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