From the Foundation to the Apex

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

Yes it's good to see that you personally could see there are disagreements but that is not arguing.
The Buddha was a Hindu as He lived in the Area of the ' Indus '. Hinduism as known and practised today wasn't around when He walked the Earth.
Mind-full-ness is about your mind being full, full of what is happening in each moment rather than thinking of the past/future.....
There are various Buddhist Teachings regarding Meditation Techniques and not all are Mindfulness Meditation, that obviously is what the disagreements are about. Now that some have been pointed out then Gem can understand and see why the disagreements arose.....

I still notice that the meditations taught by Buddha are the same in the Satipatthana, and of course Metta sutta. Sure there other things like beads, chants and what not, but I don't think Buddha taught any of that.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yea, the record in the Canon shows Buddha taught mindfulness (aka vipassana, insight meditation), and that is what the anapanasati and saptipatthana suttas are about. The metta sutta is also what Buddha taught as 'loving-kindness' which is like a good-will meditation and basically the general wish that all beings be happy. As I always say, anyone can look it it up if interested and make what they will of it.


I'm not aware of a record of him teaching meditation apart from that. There might be records I don't know about, or he might have taught other stuff which no one wrote down...

Other Meditations have been written down Gem and as I have pointed out to you not all are Mindfulness Meditation. I did list a few regarding ' Recollection ' which you can read yourself....

Didn't any of your ' Buddhist's ' Teachers point out to you that Meditation and Mindfulness are two different things, as taught by The Buddha.?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

Other Meditations have been written down Gem and as I have pointed out to you not all are Mindfulness Meditation. I did list a few regarding ' Recollection ' which you can read yourself....

Didn't any of your ' Buddhist's ' Teachers point out to you that Meditation and Mindfulness are two different things, as taught by The Buddha.?

That's weird, because mindfulness is in relation to 4 frames of reference covered satipatthana sutta. Mindfulness meditation, insight meditation, vipassana - same rose different names.

I read a long article on recollections, which I'd never heard of that before. It doesn't sound like meditation to me. It sounds like something Buddha said to somebody named Mahanama, but in the bigger picture it relates to some foundational things like morality or virtue, generosity (which is a virtue), refuge such as sangha, buddha dhamma, and of course the 'frames of reference' so-called. I don't go in for all the taggatha stuff or know anything about Devas myself, so that's not for me, but within the wider philosophy I can still see how it makes sense.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

That's weird, because mindfulness is in relation to 4 frames of reference covered satipatthana sutta. Mindfulness meditation, insight meditation, vipassana - same rose different names.

I read a long article on recollections, which I'd never heard of that before. It doesn't sound like meditation to me. It sounds like something Buddha said to somebody named Mahanama, but in the bigger picture it relates to some foundational things like morality or virtue, generosity (which is a virtue), refuge such as sangha, buddha dhamma, and of course the 'frames of reference' so-called. I don't go in for all the taggatha stuff or know anything about Devas myself, so that's not for me, but within the wider philosophy I can still see how it makes sense.

Anussati ( Pāli ) Recollection, Contemplation, Remembrance, Meditation AND Mindfulness refers to specific Meditation practices.

In the context of Buddhism/Dharma ' Meditation ' is a tool to cultivate specific qualities. and ONE of these qualities is ' Mindfulness ' another is concentration.

I am referring to Buddhism here, other belief systems may differ and the differences are just as important to the Practitioner of these other beliefs.... I am not referring to Buddhism as being the ' Only ' way....

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

That's weird, because mindfulness is in relation to 4 frames of reference covered satipatthana sutta. Mindfulness meditation, insight meditation, vipassana - same rose different names.

I read a long article on recollections, which I'd never heard of that before. It doesn't sound like meditation to me. It sounds like something Buddha said to somebody named Mahanama, but in the bigger picture it relates to some foundational things like morality or virtue, generosity (which is a virtue), refuge such as sangha, buddha dhamma, and of course the 'frames of reference' so-called. I don't go in for all the taggatha stuff or know anything about Devas myself, so that's not for me, but within the wider philosophy I can still see how it makes sense.

It doesn't sound like Meditation to you because a ' Buddhist ' Teacher hasn't pointed it out and explained in detail....

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

It doesn't sound like Meditation to you because a ' Buddhist ' Teacher hasn't pointed it out and explained in detail....

Heh, My teacher would say, I don't waste time talking about philosophy. Hows your meditation going?

I wouldn't be sitting down to mull over anything like that. Do people actually do that?

To me it sounds something like sila (virtue if you like), which Buddha talks about it, and we'd remember to be mindful of our own morality, but that doesn't make it a meditation practice. Or refuge, we'd affirm that sometimes, remember that, so all that makes sense in the foundations, but not a meditation. It seems the recollections relate to foundations like of sila, dana (virtue) and 3 jewels, that's like 5 of them. A few more relate directly to frames of reference and death contemplation in the Satipatthana. That fits and makes sense. We don't actually sit and meditate on the decaying dead body, but it's part of reflections on the true nature of body. It comes out in the discourse, we know it and understand it is true and it helps to live by the truth that death is most certainly coming, but we don't sit down to meditate on it. Only Tagatha and Deva seem totally irrelevant to me, but that's just because I don't buy the former or know about the latter.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

Anussati ( Pāli ) Recollection, Contemplation, Remembrance, Meditation AND Mindfulness refers to specific Meditation practices.

I don't think that's right, but I'm sure some people do. I read a long thing on recollection and discerned, and am happy that it is true in my life. I have seen how it is true of myself and I appreciate you pointing that out.

In the context of Buddhism/Dharma ' Meditation ' is a tool to cultivate specific qualities. and ONE of these qualities is ' Mindfulness ' another is concentration.

It's been categorised for the sake of explanation, a nice way to understand the aspects, but it's not a bunch of different things

I am referring to Buddhism here, other belief systems may differ and the differences are just as important to the Practitioner of these other beliefs.... I am not referring to Buddhism as being the ' Only ' way....

There is not 'this is the way it is in Buddhism', but I'm sure some Buddhist teachers explain it in the way you have and it's rational and sensible, but practice there isn't a samantha apart from vipassana or vipassans separate 4 mindfulness foundations (aka frames of reference). Hence I call it mindfulness on the whole and say this and that about aspects only elaborate on details, and if you sit in breath observation for example, that is samantha/vipassana/mindfulness in one meditation. Petals of the same lotus if you will.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

I don't think that's right, but I'm sure some people do. I read a long thing on recollection and discerned, and am happy that it is true in my life. I have seen how it is true of myself and I appreciate you pointing that out.

It's been categorised for the sake of explanation, a nice way to understand the aspects, but it's not a bunch of different things

There is not 'this is the way it is in Buddhism', but I'm sure some Buddhist teachers explain it in the way you have and it's rational and sensible, but practice there isn't a samantha apart from vipassana or vipassans separate 4 mindfulness foundations (aka frames of reference). Hence I call it mindfulness on the whole and say this and that about aspects only elaborate on details, and if you sit in breath observation for example, that is samantha/vipassana/mindfulness in one meditation. Petals of the same lotus if you will.

You don't see it as being right and that's fine but Buddha taught is so Buddhist would see is as being right and that's what we are talking about.... Buddhism.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

Heh, My teacher would say, I don't waste time talking about philosophy. Hows your meditation going?

I wouldn't be sitting down to mull over anything like that. Do people actually do that?

To me it sounds something like sila (virtue if you like), which Buddha talks about it, and we'd remember to be mindful of our own morality, but that doesn't make it a meditation practice. Or refuge, we'd affirm that sometimes, remember that, so all that makes sense in the foundations, but not a meditation. It seems the recollections relate to foundations like of sila, dana (virtue) and 3 jewels, that's like 5 of them. A few more relate directly to frames of reference and death contemplation in the Satipatthana. That fits and makes sense. We don't actually sit and meditate on the decaying dead body, but it's part of reflections on the true nature of body. It comes out in the discourse, we know it and understand it is true and it helps to live by the truth that death is most certainly coming, but we don't sit down to meditate on it. Only Tagatha and Deva seem totally irrelevant to me, but that's just because I don't buy the former or know about the latter.

Quote Gem,
[ wouldn't be sitting down to mull over anything like that. Do people actually do that? ]


If you frequented a ' Buddhist Sangha ' you wouldn't have the need for your question....
The Snake Simile is important to Buddhist....

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think if someone repeats something often enough it starts to seem true, but I did not say I'm teaching. I said I'm not teaching. I can say something as an adult and you can discern for yourself as an adult. I will be the same with you. That's not a dynamic of teacher over student. I look forward to learning from what you say, but you aren't teaching me. You might say things that makes me go 'mmm'.

Speaking only for myself, I’m simply self reflecting and letting your sharing move through me. I’m not identifying with you playing a role, or being a teacher.

It just makes sense in me. If it didn’t I’d express what’s going on in me. If I’m resisting something, reacting, seeing more than your offering I’d say so to myself. Look at why I felt that way. Dig a little deeper and maybe understand more of myself in it

So just too establish here, I’m not siding more aware from within what feels right through me reading and understanding what’s being shared.

Knowledge, correct texts or correct meditations have their place in the whole awareness of you moving through your own integration, transformation process. Your a being becoming through that process. So as I see this, teachings, meditation, as you open to them through their totality they would fall away, once you understand what you are becoming through them.

If you cling to teachings, correcting, proving, righting them, what are you really gaining in this way?

Nothing more than laying down what is right and correct. As you have mentioned.

When you cease this, you would move beyond this point of focus and be aware of yourself gaining something revealed as you to yourself. You wouldn’t need to prove correct teachings, you would understand why it is difficult for you to let that go, surely?

Anyhow it’s all interesting.